Homebrewing mini-disaster please help me break down process

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by Zonk, Jun 6, 2016.

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  1. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    I have not heard any of the folks who conduct basic BIAB mashing report problems so maybe the answer to your question is no?

    Below is a discussion from the Beersmith website concerning limitations of BIAB:

    “The limitations include:

    • Batch Size – All of the grains have to fit in the bag, and the bag has to be lifted out without breaking, so this does place some limitations on high gravity batches. However with a properly stitched grain bag, double batches are possible though a pulley may be desirable.
    • Efficiency – Since BIAB is a full volume method, you will lose a few percent efficiency – overall batch efficiency is usually lower than with fly sparge methods. However, this can easily be compensated by adding a little more grain to the batch and formulating your recipes with the appropriate lower brewhouse efficiency estimate. Experienced BIAB brewers have reported efficiency as high as 80% in some cases.
    • High Water to Grain Ratio – Mashing at a high water to grain ratio, as is the case here, results in lower levels of beta-amalyse, resulting in more dextrines in the finished beer. This can translate to higher body than desired at the high end of the mash temperature range (156-158F). Conversely, the thin mash also works poorly at the low end (148-150F), creating dry beer. In general BIAB works best in the mid mash temperature range (150-156F). Finally, if you are brewing a beer high in non-barley adjuncts such as flaked wheat, BIAB may not be the best option.”
    http://beersmith.com/blog/2009/04/14/brew-in-a-bag-biab-all-grain-beer-brewing/

    So, as long as you maintain a mash temperature like 153 degrees F the thin mash should be OK?

    I am not a BIAB person so the best I can do is report on what I read.

    Maybe a BA who is a BIAB brewer can provide more input here.

    Cheers!
     
  2. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Savant (1,149) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    By my calculations, I think you ended up with closer to 2.1-2.2 gallons after the boil, which would make more sense as to how 1.100 turned out to be 1.042 at 5 gallons (100*2.1/5=42).

    Standard ratio these days is getting to be closer to 2 qt/lb. It goes up more every year or so, and some go as much as 3 qt/lb and report no ill effects, and I believe it. My typical ratio now is 1.5-1.75 qt/lb, highest I've gone is about 2 or maybe 2.25. It works. However I've also gone as low as 0.9 qt/lb and that works fine as well, especially for high gravity beers where you want to sparge/rinse as much sugars as possible, so then thicken the mash so you can rinse with more of the preboil volume water.

    If your yeast is still active (which I'm sure it is), they'll eat your additional sugars. No worries over mixing, they'll do the mixing themselves.
     
    #22 dmtaylor, Jun 6, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2016
  3. Reneejane

    Reneejane Initiate (0) Jan 15, 2004 Illinois

    My experience, ymmv.

    Biab is always lower efficiency than i plan on.

    Reading gravity at greater than 65-75 is not accurate even with a compensation equation. You can speed up the process by putting the hot liquid in a zip top bag, and putting on your freezer and then reading.

    Grain crush is my biggest bugaboo in lhbs. I quit buying grain from a particular store. Rice hulls are cheap, crap grain crush is more aggravation than rice hulls.

    It is entirely conceivable that if you buy another kit for biab, your efficiency will be the same. So, write that number down and buy enough compensatory dme for your next batch. You might hold of on using it but, ... at least you can only get better.
     
  4. Zonk

    Zonk Initiate (0) Dec 2, 2014 New Jersey

    Thanks for all the help guys. I think part of the problem is that as the bag was draining the strainer somehow dropped into the bucket along with the bag (should have been physically impossible). Have a feeling it soaked up some wort and wasn't properly sparged again, so probably threw out a bunch of sugar on top of my spent grain.

    FWIW I went down to check and make sure my reading was correct, but it was bubbling away and already down to 1.034. I dropped in just under a pound of DME to hopefully get me back in range.
     
  5. LeRose

    LeRose Grand Pooh-Bah (4,423) Nov 24, 2011 Massachusetts
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah Trader

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  6. Zonk

    Zonk Initiate (0) Dec 2, 2014 New Jersey

    Just updating everyone who was nice enough to help. I'm down to 1.018 with with an expected FG 1.015. Tasted pretty good as well. I definitely feel like the mash picked up the chocolate flavors (chocolate malt), and has sweetness (not sure if from Cara-whatever or lactose?), but very little of the roast flavors I want in a stout (roasted barley). Any thoughts why this would occur? Mash temp, maybe?
     
  7. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Hmm, that is vexing. I would not think that mash conditions should be too critical with respect to Roasted Barley since that malt does not have to be mashed; Roasted Barley is a steepable malt.

    Maybe the qualities of the Roasted Barley will be more noticeable in the finished beer?

    Here is an article for further reading about dark grains: http://beersmith.com/blog/2011/11/17/brewing-beer-with-dark-grains-steeping-versus-mashing/

    Cheers!
     
  8. Zonk

    Zonk Initiate (0) Dec 2, 2014 New Jersey

    Thanks, it could just be a matter of the beer being on the sweet side and just not having a ton of roast in the bill. The grains were premixed so its hard for me to break out what's what, and definitely had some bitterness behind them but may be hiding behind chocolate, lactose and amber DME flavors now. Honestly just trying to get familiar enough with the process that I can toy with it at this point. For anyone out there doing BIAB, how do you pick a mash temp?
     
  9. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    You might want to start a new thread to ask your questions about the BIAB method. Beyond the mash temperature question you can ask about mash thickness, mash pH topics, how critical is it to obtain the proper grain crush, what efficiencies have folks obtained, etc.

    Cheers!
     
  10. ssam

    ssam Pundit (997) Dec 2, 2008 California

    I get 55%-60% on no-sparge partial mashes with 2qts/lb
     
  11. ssam

    ssam Pundit (997) Dec 2, 2008 California

    Partial mashing will be a bit different than an all grain BIAB. When @JackHorzempa talks about adding your full pre-boil volume with no-sparge BIAB, he's likely referring to AG practice. If you did that with a partial mash, it would give you a super thin mash. The problems with super thin, as I understand it, is you run the risk of the enzymes not fully interacting with your mash and probably ineffective conversion.
     
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  12. Zonk

    Zonk Initiate (0) Dec 2, 2014 New Jersey

    That makes sense. I would have to imagine there is a minimum amount of enzymes per/L to be effective. On the other side I would think at a certain thickness extraction diminishes as water approaches saturation levels of sugar.
     
  13. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Savant (1,149) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    I doubt mash temp or thickness have much to do with it. It could be a water/ pH thing maybe. But consider whether it might just be an ingredient quality or personal taste thing.

    FWIW, I tend to mash everything at 148-152 F for 40-45 minutes. Been doing this for over 10 years and pleased with results. No thinking required in that regard, since these variables really do not make a very big difference in final beer quality.
     
    #33 dmtaylor, Jun 14, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2016
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  14. Zonk

    Zonk Initiate (0) Dec 2, 2014 New Jersey

    Reading over some stuff it seems that higher mash temp supposedly gives thicker mouthfeel. You don't think it has much impact?
     
  15. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Savant (1,149) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    I think differences in final beer character based on mash temperatures are less significant than other variables, assuming one mashes in a reasonable range between about 147-157 F or thereabouts. Mash time is a somewhat more useful and interesting variable. Mash pH is less understood and also deserving of greater exploration.
     
  16. Zonk

    Zonk Initiate (0) Dec 2, 2014 New Jersey

    By all means, love to hear your thoughts on mash time as a variable. Most of the partial mash recipes I see (as far as I have gone towards grain) call for an hour.
     
  17. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Savant (1,149) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    One hour is a good default, although with a good crush of 21st century malts, it is actually overkill. Conversion is about 90% complete in the first 15 minutes at normal mash temp and pH, but the real reason we mash longer than that is not for conversion and mash efficiency but rather for improved fermentability/attenuation. Through experimentation I found that a 30 minute mash time has no adverse impact on efficiency at all but had significant effect of limiting attenuation, i.e., you'll get higher final gravity. At 40 minutes compared to 60 minutes, however, I found that the difference in attenuation is barely detectable, only different by a couple of points. So again I think we get about 90% or more of the benefits of a normal mash regimen within 40 minutes and not 60 as cited as the default by most homebrewers. Save yourself a lot of time on every brewday of your life if you want with no discernible detrimental effects. I love time savings wherever possible. Some don't care and that's fine too. Longer mashes of 75 or 90 minutes or more do indeed help to assure greater attenuation where desired such as for saisons and Belgian styles.

    Cheers.
     
  18. Zonk

    Zonk Initiate (0) Dec 2, 2014 New Jersey

    Just trying to clarify. So you are saying you get as much sugar(OG), but not as much fermentable sugar from the shorter mash? What would account for that? Less time for enzymes to break non-fermentable to fermentable sugar (amylose to amylopectin?)?
     
  19. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Savant (1,149) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    Yes, that's pretty much it. Chemical reactions, including biochemical reactions, do not usually occur instantaneously but rather on a curved scale over time. I have not developed all the specific curves but suffice it to say thst in my experience, mash times of more than 40 minutes are largely unnecessary for most styles and homebrew processes, since the benefit beyond that point is very minor.
     
  20. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Define minor. Greg Doss' data (for example) shows what I would call a pretty significant difference in apparent attenuation between 45 minutes and 75 minutes. The difference was almost 7%, (i.e. a factor of almost 1.07) (Pilsner malt, 151F.)

    Mash time is a powerful attenuation lever, right up there with mash temp.

    @Zonk BrewCipher and BeerSmith use Doss and/or Troester mash parameters data to predict attenuation, if you want to play with the numbers.
     
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