Honey Fermentability

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by VikeMan, Aug 14, 2020.

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  1. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    A lot of people (including me) have offered wisdom like "the sugars in honey are 100% fermentable," even though we know that's not quite true.

    Today, I finished a little trial with a honey solution.

    Some Details:
    Dutch Gold Orange Blossom Honey, Campden Treated Tap Water, Pasteurized
    Yeast Strain: US-05 (plus Fermaid-K)
    Measured OG: 1.036
    Measured FG: 0.997

    Computed Apparent Attenuation: 108.3% (~88.8% Real Attenuation)

    It's just one data point, but I plan to use it in place of 100% real (122% apparent) attenuation. Also, I know I could have used data from meads (including my own), but felt that a smallish wort (actually "must"), with an ale yeast, carefully measured to completion might be better than using somewhat anecdotal numbers, some of which could be skewed by tired yeast, fruit additions, volume changes (evaporation), ABV tolerance, etc.
     
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  2. jmdrpi

    jmdrpi Grand High Pooh-Bah (8,989) Dec 11, 2008 Pennsylvania
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah

    I think you're also going to see some variability based on the quality of the honey and how filtered it is (Raw Honey is not filtered as much so still contains pollen and other stuff).

    Because a lot of the cheap honey for retail sale is coming from Asian countries with dubious regulations, and may be heavily cut with corn syrup or other sugars.
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/larryo...is-worlds-third-most-faked-food/#3285f07e4f09
     
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  3. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Savant (1,149) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    Most people rely upon apparent attenuation rather than real attenuation, so in that sense most if not all honeys will reach an FG <1.000 unless the yeast hits its alcohol tolerance first, which is also likely at >9% ABV. But for small meads like the one you just made, you should reliably hit FG 0.992-0.997 as you experienced, which for basic intents & purposes is >100% "attenuation" (apparent of course), a.k.a, "fermentability".
     
  4. Granitebeard

    Granitebeard Zealot (549) Aug 24, 2016 Maine

    I just started mead this year, and I actually use Brewcipher for my recipes. I know the yeast is not in it that I use, but I can find a yeast that has a high tolerance and use that. Will it be spot on? Probably not. But I have tried learning it as I go. I do not like the other mead calculators I can find, so it works for me and I have found I am keeping way better notes. I like this, as I am kind of playing with the same thing. Same honey, same yeast, same volume, but different additions. You, or at least I, wouldn't think that a small hop addition to mead would make the yeast act different, but I have noticed this. So while note exactly the same, it is something I am doing by more of a trial and error method.
     
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  5. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    You might want to go to the grainlookup tab and replace Honey's "Basic Attenuation" with something like 108.3%. For a dry mead, that ought to get you closer than the default. I'll be changing the default in the next release.

    A couple things, which you're probably aware of, if using BC for mead:

    - recommended pitch rates, nutrients, and oxygenation are definitely not optimized for mead

    - for sweet meads of the kind relying on ABV (non)tolerance to whack the yeast, the FG predictions won't be valid. (BC doesn't support ABV tolerance based attenuation limits, but that's something for me to think about. Could also be useful for beers, and the functionality could be user selectable (on/off).)
     
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  6. Granitebeard

    Granitebeard Zealot (549) Aug 24, 2016 Maine

    Yeah, I did notice that. With the notes I have taken, I have started to have a better idea of what to expect. I will probably go in and make that change to honey. To me, BC is just easier to use, and better because, while not 100% accurate, it is better then the online calculators I have found that say all my meads are 23% ABV... Couple how well I know BC with brewing beer, and I am able to figure out roughly where I can expect to be given particular combinations.
     
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  7. MrOH

    MrOH Grand Pooh-Bah (3,995) Jul 5, 2010 Virginia
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah

    I would be interested to see what the attenuation rate is like for other honeys, if you ever feel like doing that.
     
  8. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Do you have any particular honeys in mind?
     
  9. MrOH

    MrOH Grand Pooh-Bah (3,995) Jul 5, 2010 Virginia
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah

    Buckwheat would be interesting to see. Or even just two wildflower honeys harvested from different regions (say the NJ Pine Barrens honey you can get from Keystone, and a wildflower honey out west) just to see the difference.
     
  10. Prep8611

    Prep8611 Savant (1,208) Aug 22, 2014 New Jersey

    Buckwheat and clover honey are not ideal. I’m a biggest fan of blueberry harvest honey but #1 for me is wildflower honey. I only buy honey from NJ to avoid that Chinese corn syrup fake honey.
     
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  11. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,635) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    @VikeMan table 7.3 in Schramm's Compleat Meadmaker has some values of interest but not the whole set of data you want.

    Water content can go from 13.4% to 22.9 %. Sugars higher than maltose can go up to 8.5%. Ash can be up to 1%. Undetermined (whatever that is) can go up to 14%

    I know some commercial meadmakers that love Orange Blossom honey. They also love Tupelo, but that is so expensive now. Honey is a byproduct for commercial polinators. They get paid to have their give in the orange groves, the honey is secondary. There are no Tupelo fruits or nuts to my knowledge, hence part of the expense.
     
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  12. MrOH

    MrOH Grand Pooh-Bah (3,995) Jul 5, 2010 Virginia
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah

    I've always wanted to mess around with some of the more esoteric honeys from Bee Raw (www.beeraw.com), but they are way too expensive to make mead with. Can't imagine dropping $50 for 1 gallon of short mead. I'm assuming that a lot of those honeys either come from folks running nurseries or seed fields for the niche plants they come from.

    I actually looked into almond honey when I heard about all the hive theft out in the California almond growing area. Turns out it's too dark and bitter (even more than buckwheat) to sell as is, so it's either used in industrial baking products on the very low end of the scale, or mixed into animal feed.

    There is/was some sort of crazy Anarchist urban beekeeper in DC that sold single neighborhood honeys. Always wanted to try out something from near the National Arboretum or Botanical Gardens, but again, very expensive.
     
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  13. jmdrpi

    jmdrpi Grand High Pooh-Bah (8,989) Dec 11, 2008 Pennsylvania
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    It would have to be from some kind of mono-culture growing of some type, to be able to guarantee a majority from one flower type. Honeybees can have a 2+ mile radius for foraging.

    My wife kept bees for a few years and took an apiary class at the local 4H club. One of the teachers told a story about discovering blue and red colored "honey" in some of the comb in a hive. The bees must have been visiting a local candy manufacturer or something and somehow collecting artificially colored sugar syrup.
     
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  14. MrOH

    MrOH Grand Pooh-Bah (3,995) Jul 5, 2010 Virginia
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    I've heard about that. Way easier from them to collect syrup run off in one place to meet caloric needs of the hive than it is for them to get a bit of nectar from thousands of flowers.
     
  15. MrOH

    MrOH Grand Pooh-Bah (3,995) Jul 5, 2010 Virginia
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    Other cool thing that person did was list the season of each neighborhood hive when it was collected. Fall/winter honey is much richer than Spring/Summer.
     
  16. jmdrpi

    jmdrpi Grand High Pooh-Bah (8,989) Dec 11, 2008 Pennsylvania
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    Around here, the primary fall wildflowers/weeds are Goldenrod. We could smell the difference in our hives once that was blooming.
     
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  17. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Thanks! I actually have that book. I might be available to use the data in some way, but need to determine how. One issue is that the "higher sugars" would be partially comprised of maltotriose, which is (somewhat) fermentable and partially comprised of non-fermentable stuff. And God knows what's in "undetermined." Perhaps I can make some simplifying assumptions, compare to orange blossom honey as a baseline, and then test some other honeys against the assumptions.

    (Oh, and for some honeys, the moisture plus various sugar (and "undetermined") percentages don't add to 100% (and it's not just rounding). Perhaps there are a few typos.)
     
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  18. MrOH

    MrOH Grand Pooh-Bah (3,995) Jul 5, 2010 Virginia
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    Around here, there's too much going on within a bee's reach to say anything's primary. Urban landscape and everything in every park and folks little front yard and balcony, in a place where folks want to keep up some appearances and always have something in bloom. Especially when the National Arboretum and Botanical Gardens are within their reach, it's a complex honey, each jar a moment in the time it was harvested from the hive.
    Still, at $20 for an 8oz jar, too rich for my bones.
     
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  19. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,635) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    The undertermined for raw honey would be bits of wax, bee parts, and so on. Once saw a 55 gallon drum of raw honey opened, and there was a lot of stuff floating on top.

    Edit - UC Davis might be a place to send a question to.
     
  20. jmdrpi

    jmdrpi Grand High Pooh-Bah (8,989) Dec 11, 2008 Pennsylvania
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    If it's not ultra filtered, it can be wax. Chances are it's less gross in concept than the bee puke we love as honey.
     
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