Honey note in all homebrew

https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/kDAplxpjQC/pentanedione/

Then it seems I was wrong; more of a fermentation byproduct than an oxidation product. Or maybe both?

 

VDKs

 

Honey is an apt descriptor for early/mild oxidation. AFAIK the resemblance is coincidental, i.e. pentanedione does not occur in actual honey. Cardboard is an oft quoted but rarely tasted descriptor for extremely oxidated beer. I think you really have to screw the pooch and/or wait a long time to reach that stage.

 

Here is where I think the disconnect is. ( general rant coming, not directed at you!)

"Looks like I need to be more strict about using a VDK rest to give the yeast time to get rid of them"

Thats the typical thought process right?
The thought process should not be to give enough time.

The thought process should be... Why are they there in the first place?
Fix it on the front side, and you don't have problems on the back side. I have nearly 1000 lager batches under my belt, and have zero issues with VDK's. I have never done a rest for them, why? Because I nip it in the bud on the front side, its an easy solution.

Pitch healthy active yeast and pitch a lot. 2.5ml pitch rate.
Aerate properly
Ferment cool

Pretty much those things will stop nearly all lager off flavors. Also it stops the need to have to ramp temps. Ramping temps is a bandaid to not following the above. Once you do a cold true fermentation, you will be able to tell the difference between cold and ramped lagers.

cold lagers= lagers that taste like lagers.
ramped lagers= lagers that taste like ales.

(rant over)

Process, proccess, process!

 

Firstly, I do not think you are having a VDK issue; I would guess oxidation.

Can you please provide exact details on your bottling process. For example, how are you transferring the beer into the bottles? Is there any chance you are introducing 'extra' air (oxygen) during the bottling process? For example, is there splashing involved?

Cheers!

 

It has been my understanding that dark malts have antioxidative properties. This was mentioned in the abstract of this Journal of the Institute of Brewing article:

“Dark specialty malts are important ingredients for the production of several beer styles. These malts not only impart colour, flavour and antioxidative activity to wort and beer,…”

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.2005.tb00648.x

Cheers!

 

I personally would not worry about step 2.

How well does your bottling wand fit/attach into the spigot? Is there any chance it has a poor seal and air (oxygen) thereby gets 'sucked' into the beer as you bottle? Is your bottling wand clear - do you see any bubbles in the beer during bottling? How tight is the spigot when you put it into the open position? Any chance there is air (oxygen) getting sucked into the spigot while it is in the open position?

I bottle my beers and I typically obtain a beer shelf life of 8-9 months for moderate gravity beers but my bottling process is different from yours. I do not have any spigots (either in my primary bucket or bottling bucket). My transfer to the bottles is via siphoning with a racking cane, tubing, and bottling wand.

Maybe some BAs who bottle in a manner similar to your method can provide further input here?

Cheers!

 

@frozyn -- in my mind, I am unsure about whether it could be VDK or oxidation. The one thing you noted that supports oxidation is the poor-fitting fermenter lid. Some questions that could get at the VDK issue -- are you using a different yeast lately, changing pitching procedures or wort oxidation procedures, trying to accelerate your primary fermentation?

 

@frozyn, did you taste your beers at bottling (e.g., tasted the hydrometer sample)? If so, did you perceive honey-like flavors in the beer then? Or is it honey-like only "after being in the bottle for a month or two"?

Cheers!

 

@frozyn do other folks get the same honey characteristic from any of those beers of yours?

 

FYI. 2-3-pentanedione doesn't not have to come from VKD's. It's the same flavor regardless of where it shows up. Oxidized German beer is 2-3-pentanedione, from "container pasteurization"

FYI 2. It comes from primarily pilsner malt.

FYI 3. What all you bottlers should do, is to add the priming sugar to water then boil it. Then inject it into the fermenter. Allow fermentation to pick back up steadily, then bottle. This protects all point of ingress in the bottling process.

FYI 4. The amount of oxygen before staling accelerates is 150ppb, this is the industry standard. SO even if you have a flawless bottle session, due to physics, you ingress 5-7ppb per day ( we will use 5 for easy math). It's all fine and dandy until your yeast in the bottle stops and falls. One that happens its going DIRECTLY in your beer. Therefor not counting refermention for carbonation your bottled beer is a ticking timebomb.. 150/5 is 30 days before the noticeable effects of oxidation start. So 8-9 months of that is 270x5= 1.350ppm of DO, which is nearly 10x the oxidation allowed in the industry standard. Bottled beer loses freshness the fastest of any packaging.

FYI 5. Dark malts contain more melanoidians, those CAN add antioxidant properties. HOWEVER, thermal stress is a great destroyer of these. So unless you are under 10% boil off with a gentle boil, these won't help you much.

FYI 6. Kidding, though I do have more.

 

Live yeast in bottles do not 'stop' having anti-oxidative properties in bottle conditioned beers.

If a brewer were to sterile filter beer then the ingress of oxygen through the bottle cap is an issue.

Needless to say but continual cold storage of beer greatly decreases oxidative processes (staling).

Cheers!

 

Nope, I’m sorry but that is false. If that was case you could just leave beer on yeast and it would never oxidize. Beer stops fermenting yeast go dormant, DO increases. It’s as simple as that.

Cold storage, doesn’t decrease it. The partial pressure laws still apply. Chemical reactions slow with temperature. So while there is no “decrease” the reactions just happen slower.

 

I wondered about this one, too. Is there a time frame under specified temps of when to bottle, or maybe a visual benchmark like airlock activity? Looking for something that a run o' the mill homebrewer could use.
Seems that method could also help with more even distribution of the priming solution.

Okay, probably not this then, but I asked because an outside-the-box observation/question came to mind.....like if there was anything that might have happened to you that could have impacted your perception of flavors in general, around the time that you first noticed the honey flavor?
Maybe some sort of malady or procedure (sinus infection/surgery), new/different vitamins, supplements or medications.
Just food for thought; please do not share personal medical data .

 

For those of you who are members of AHA I would encourage you to view a presentation given at HomebrewCon 2017:

Beer Oxidation: Chemistry, Sensory Evaluation, and Prevention by Bob Hall and Andy Mitchell

Bob Hall has a PhD and teaches at University of Wyoming. Andy Mitchell is a brewer at New Belgium Brewing.

On charts 32-37 there is a discussion on the topic of “How we package at NBB” with photographs of their bottling line and canning line included.

On chart 33 about bottling there is mention of “Yeast added –Stop the line > 600 ppb” So even if the bottled beers have a measured oxygen amount of 600 ppb they continue packaging since the yeast provides sufficient antioxidative capability.

On chart 35 about canning there is mention of “Add yeast back for many beers”

On chart 37 it lists:

“Yeast is the anti-oxidation weapon

Yeast can prevent and even reverse oxidation aromas

Reduces aldehydes to alcohol

Could lower some good aromas (we don’t add yeast to CitradelicTangerine or Voodoo Ranger IPA)”

Cheers!

 

Bottle conditioned beers have improved shelf life because the "yeast is the anti-oxidation weapon".

It is as simple as that.

Cheers!

 

You are misinterpreting that but whatever works for you.
When the yeast is ACTIVE For those who want the correct answer.