Hop Utilization in whirlpool ( BITTER BATCH ! )

I think Eric was saying that increased carbonation increases the perception of bitterness. (Not decreases.)

 

I started out using spring water and switched to distilled for extract beers. I feel I get a cleaner beer with the distilled. From what I have read when they make the extract they use a specific water profile. So any minerals in the water you use are added to the ones already in the extract.

I also use US-05 a lot for my ipas. I have had the best results fermenting between 60-65 even when dry hopping. I get a nice clean bitterness.

 

Not sure what happened here, but that sounds exactly like polyphenol(tannin) problems.

I've been doing whirlpool hopping since ~2006 with my first Pliny clone and can say that that shouldn't be your problem. The only times i've had issues with it was when trying for a low to moderate ibu beer and not properly taking iso-alpha conversion into account. So everyone pointing you towards water seems to be the right direction.

 

I never did either until I purchased Arrowhead water that was full of chloramines, and then after dumping 6 batches I brewed on a single day, I went RO just so I didn't have to deal with that life scarring experience again.

I think that, of the water profiles I've built since switching to RO (I had my Arrowhead water tested before so I knew what I was brewing with, but only messed with pH and added calcium to get in correct range), some beers have had noticeable improvements (All dark beers, period), others, have stayed pretty much the same.

Water may be a culprit, but from previous experiences with Falconer's Flight, it has some pretty tongue ripping bitterness. I had an XPA that was borderline undrinkable due to the bitterness for the first month or so.

 

Ward, is it possible to get ‘too much’ bitterness from a 20 minute hop stand?

I am assuming that the dry hop contributes zero bitterness.

Cheers!

 

At 170F, chances are pretty much zero. I thought it might be the character of the hops, since Falconers can be a bit harsh (despite relatively low co humumlone). Also could just be hop matter in suspension as I've had some beers go from awfully bitter to pretty clean just with a little bit of time in the cold.

 

Based on my calcs, you should get 16% of the bitterness (ie isomerization) from a 175 deg F 30-min hopstand vs a boil for 30 mins. This means for (say 12% AA FFs), you added about 9-9.5 IBUs.

I thought the key was that the beer was good until the OP bottled...

 

I think it would be possible a mistake with the gravity of the wort. Did you check wort OG?.It is possible that you could make a mistake weighing your extracts, hence your OG was much lower than the one you think it was.Adding 2 oz of Cascades @ 15 min will give this beer a strong bitter flavor , just thinking.
Take an FG read ,if it is way too lower than the one you spected then this hunch could be true.

 

I missed that, but if thats the case (as it appears to be when reading the OP's posts), then the water argument is moot as well.

The tongue scraping bitterness and dryness seem to be indicative of tannins (or Falconer's in general), or potentially additional attenuation occurring post bottling.

 

Keep in mind too that unless you're using hop bags and pulling your other hop additions prior to the whirlpool you need to push your late additions out a bit to compensate for the additional hot time. Flavor turns to bitterness pretty quick under heat, regardless of if its boiling or not.

 

It's not really that quick. It would take ~6x as long to get the same bitterness from a 175 deg F whirlpool than from a boil. At that temperature, you are below the volatilization temperature of most (but not all) of the essential oils in hops. This has nothing to do with the whirlpool addition.

 

I thought I'd post this - regarding boiling points of essential oils. I used to whirlpool at 170 deg F - now I actually try to get down to 140 - to preserve as much myrcene as possible.

http://beersmith.com/blog/2013/01/21/late-hop-additions-and-hop-oils-in-beer-brewing/

Oh yeah! Citra and Simcoe (two of the abundant hops in FF) contain more myrcene than just about any other hop. Think that has anything to do with why ithose hops are so popular? OK, I'll stop now.

 

Guess it's a good thing my hopstand/whirlpool temp drops significantly from the 170*F I start at : )
(Simcoe and Citra very common for me)...Pine Pee #1! ... : )

Still something harsh about FF though, IMHO.

 

Myrcene, myrcene, myrcene!

 

FYI myrcene isn't very water soluble, and is very volatile.

If you look at myrcene levels in finished beer, kettle hopped beers have on the order of a couple ug/l of myrcene when analyzed by GC-MS, whereas dry hopped beers tend to have on the order of 20-300 ug/l of myrcene (Mean threshold for detection on order of 40 ug/l). What you do with your boil additions is pretty minimal for myrcene levels compared to a dry hopping.

 

Ah, the beauty of dry hopping (and having some alcohol available to ‘dissolve’ essential oils).

I follow the ‘belt and suspenders’ approach when it comes to obtaining hop aroma: add hops at the end of boil (and hopstand) and dry hopping.

Cheers!