Hoppy APA question

Just try for yourself and see what you think.

 

It is bugging me the way you describe early additions as adding to bitterness but not taste or flavor. These statements are self-contradictory.

1. If bitterness is not a "taste" what is it?

2. The term "Flavor" describes a more complex (composite) perception than "taste", but bitterness is certainly a component of that composite.

 

Basic Homebrewing books describe three basic hops additions:

· Bitterness: typically added at the beginning of the boil (typical boil time: 60 minutes)

· Flavor: My books state adding flavor hops with 15 minutes or less of boil time. There has been discussion in another thread that a 30 minute addition will also provide some flavor as well.

· Aroma: typically added at the end of boil; e.g., with 5 minutes or less of boil time. I personally add my aroma hops at the end of boil

In addition to the above basic hopping schedule, you can add dry hops for the ‘ultimate’ of hop aroma.

There is also a method call First Wort Hopping beyond what was discussed above.

Bitterness is certainly one of the 5 basic tastes.

I agree with the ‘definition’ of flavor being: “The term "Flavor" describes a more complex (composite) perception than "taste".

Cheers!

 

Yes, and we should all be aware that both early boil and late boil additions contribute to taste (and flavor), but the late boil additions contribute less to bitterness. Only very late additions (including flameout, hop back, D.H additions) contribute significant amounts of volatile compounds associated with aroma.

 

Depending on the beer being brewed, either could be just fine. Some brew more than just DIPA's and other hoppy beers.

 

It would appear that this is a confusion caused by vocabulary. While it's true that 'bitterness' is a flavor component, the term has a very specific meaning in the context of beer. I'm not a food scientist, so I won't try to explain the nature of what we perceive as bitterness. 'Flavor' is used to describe the floral, citrus, woody, herbal, etc. stuff. Again, I don't have the background necessary to define it, so I won't try.

 

I agree to a point. People are seemingly confused. I was trying to point out that bitterness is indeed a component of the taste and flavor of beer (and also to draw some distinction between these two terms - taste and flavor.) There are other components like you mention herbal, citrus Etc. The existence of these doesn't really provide cause for us to exclude the bitterness component. Reviews of beer almost always include descriptions related to bitterness, because bitterness is an important component of a beer's flavor. Bitterness certainly has nothing to do with the way a beer looks or smells. You can draw a distinction between bitterness and other flavor elements. You can say that late hop boil additions contribute flavor but less bitterness. You can say that early additions contribute little flavor other than bitterness. But it is incorrect to say that early additions don't contribute flavor.

 

The question is what do you mean by hoppy? Bitterness, or aroma and flavor? And what APAs do you want your beer to be like?

If I was going to brew a pale ale I would do little to no hops at 60min maybe 15 IBU then try to pick up another 30 IBU or so by a whirlpool rest and then a lot of dry hopping.This is for an apa with a lot of hop flavor and aroma something like lagunitas new dog town or firestone walker pale 31.

Hopping in this style for a 1.050 beer 5 gallon batch at around 43 IBU:
.25 warrior @ 60
.75 cascade @ 0 mins then rest for 30 mins
.75 zythos @ 0 mins then rest for 30 mins
Then dry hop 1.25 zythos and 1.25 cascade in the keg if you're kegging.

That's how I like them.

 

If we don't agree on language, it's impossible to communicate. In the vernacular of home brewing, 'flavor' and 'bitterness' are two very different things. Brewers understand the implied meanings and, thus, communicate rather efficiently. In that context, it's correct to say that early additions don't contribute flavor. If you insist on using the term 'flavor' to include 'bitterness', you'll have to either define your terms each time you use them or be prepared to engage in a semantic discussion any time you talk to a brewer. Personally, I'll stick with the shorthand we've grown accustomed to over the years. You do whatever works for you.

 

Understood. The problem is when an operational definition is at odds with a basic factual and simple definition. There is no literal definition of "bitterness" that is not related to taste. When it is clear it is clear, but when it isn't (as in in this thread) then those who insist on the nonstandard definition aren't very helpful.

 

You can get bitterness from any hops addition. If you want your bitterness to be stable you need to isomerize the hop oils. This means a long 60 minute boil. Nothing wrong with 5 IBU's of a 60 IBU beer coming from a 60 minute hop addition.

If you're new to brewing I wouldn't mess with hop bursting.

Nothing wrong with 30 minute additions either, but w/a APA I agree that you need late additions.

Consider your chilling method. If you take more than ... lets say 25 minutes then you flameout has just moved to more like a 5 minute or more.

 

You certainly have a point, but it is what it is. Words frequently take on meanings that stray from their dictionary definitions. In this case, we needed a way to express flavor excluding bitterness (or, perhaps more correctly, 'taste' excluding bitterness, since aroma is also a component of 'flavor'). We need to separate bitterness, aroma, and the other thing (that thing that we identify as 'hoppy', not counting bitterness and aroma). You see the problem. One of the ancient sages decided to exploit a common misuse of the seemingly imprecise word 'flavor' for this purpose. Perhaps not ideal, but that's what we're stuck with.

 

Aroma doesn't count in 'hoppy?' Dang, I just googled the phrase "hoppy aroma" and got 123K hits. But I agree with both of you that it would be nice to have a common set of definitions that everyone agrees on (whether they be stock standard english or hobby lingo). But there is a problem with that. People won't abide by it, even if they get the memo.