Hoppy Sours?

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by pweis909, Sep 16, 2013.

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  1. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    Except that brett doesn't mean sour. Hop savant is funky as hell, but it isn't a sour.

    Red Swingline is barrel aged, and most of the hop additions are late. It isn't bitter at all, but very hop forward because of the additions. If you ever get the chance to check it out do yourself the favor.
    http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/18120/92078
     
    #21 SFACRKnight, Sep 17, 2013
  2. drgarage

    drgarage Initiate (0) Aug 19, 2008 California

    I've definitely had bottles of Savant I would consider legitimately sour -- obvious lactic acid in significant quantities. I've had others that are just bretty.
     
    #22 drgarage, Sep 17, 2013
  3. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    Really? I've consumed copious amounts of the mosaic and galaxy and haven't had any sour at all.
     
    #23 SFACRKnight, Sep 17, 2013
  4. drgarage

    drgarage Initiate (0) Aug 19, 2008 California

    Yep -- bottle I had at Mikkeller bar a couple of weeks ago, in particular.
     
    #24 drgarage, Sep 17, 2013
  5. atomeyes

    atomeyes Initiate (0) Jul 13, 2011 Canada (ON)


    not sure what you consider to be a sour, but one of my favourite beer i've made was a sour mango beer with citra and brett claus. not hoppy, but everything just works.
    currently brewing a few "Belgian" IPAs, which are low in IBU but are using brett strains.

    but, again, what is "sour"? low pH? brett? lacto?

    my simple answer: a drop in pH makes the hops pop, for good or for bad. what you described in your white wine palate is pretty much what i aim to make when making my beer. so i use a fair amount of hops when making brett beer, but they are late additions. i don't dump a lot at 60 min. the IBUs are kept low, otherwise they overwhelm.

    yesterday, i just dry hopped one of my BIPA with falconer's flight and tettanger. IBU will probably be at 25, which is very low, but will be perceived to be hoppy (not necessarily bitter) nonetheless.

    now, would i strive to make a hoppy berliner weiss? that may be really gross. but adding some nelson sauvin or citra at 5 min to a berliner weiss? that seems pretty smart, does it not?
     
    #25 atomeyes, Sep 18, 2013
  6. OldSock

    OldSock Maven (1,418) Apr 3, 2005 District of Columbia

    This thread reminded me that I needed to post tasting notes for a wine barrel aged solera (second pull) that was split and dry hopped with Sterling, and Mosaic/Citra/Nelson. Even though the hops were added four months ago, and they were bottled three months ago, the aromatics are still very fresh and juicy with the bold blend. The Sterling in nice, mildly herbal/fruity, more balanced.
     
    #26 OldSock, Sep 18, 2013
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  7. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    You raise some great questions that speak to the complexity of the issue of acidity beer. I would have thought that the sourness that you are describing in the brett IPA is different from what I was thinking about (and yet, my white wine description is what made you think of it.) I was thinking that my wine characterization might be more like that Berliner weisse with citra and nelson. But I don't really know.

    In thinking about sour, I suspect we probably need to consider more than just pH. Wine and mead makers influence sensory perception with a variety of fruit-derived acids (citric, tartaric, malic) and brewers certainly know that lactic, acetic, and carbonic acids have very different effects.
     
    #27 pweis909, Sep 18, 2013
  8. atomeyes

    atomeyes Initiate (0) Jul 13, 2011 Canada (ON)


    when people talk about sours, i assume that we're talking about lacto, lambic or brett beer. even though brett on its own doesn't sour, i think that funk falls into the sour category (or that's how most people talk).

    i mean, is a gose without lacto a sour? it has acid malt, which will drop the pH. how about Bastogne yeast, which leave a slightly tart aftertaste?
     
    #28 atomeyes, Sep 18, 2013
  9. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    I've never really thought of Brett as sour, but I don't have tons of experience. Similarly, I have only used Bastogne yeast one time and I would not have considered it sour. This does not discount the possibility that there might be something going on with pH in these strains that influences some distinct perceptions; I just would not have called them sour. But this is part of what I mean about the complexity of sourness - I'm eager to learn more from both academic and experiential endeavors.

    I had thought that lacto was more or less a "requirement" of gose. I've only had one commercial brew advertised as gose, and as it was not German, lacked lacto, it probably is best thought of as gose-inspired rather than authentic. That said, I kind of liked it at least for one bottle. I think the salt might have worn on me had I tried a second. (It was August Schell Brewery).
     
    #29 pweis909, Sep 18, 2013
  10. atomeyes

    atomeyes Initiate (0) Jul 13, 2011 Canada (ON)

    i'd suggest that the salt and corriander are the tell-tale signs of a gose. lacto can be used as well (and i prefer it that way), but i brew mine w/o lacto.

    brett isn't sour. lambicus arguably is tart, but it isn't sour.
     
    #30 atomeyes, Sep 18, 2013
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