How long until Treehouse is replicated?

Gonna be hard to replicate those cloudy juice bombs from Tree House. I'd actually take fresh Trillium hops over anyone in the country. Haven't had 1 yet that didn't blow my mind.

 

There's actually a forum on here with a pretty comprehensive list of places by borough you can check out... might be a bit of information overload.
http://www.beeradvocate.com/communi...bar-store-restaurant-and-brewery-list.200513/

My personal favorite spots for bars are Bar Great Harry, The Owl Farm, and Mission Dolores (all sister bars in Brooklyn), plus Sugarburg in Brooklyn. I like Torst but they're heavily weighted on Evil Twin beers since it's Jeppe Jarnit-Bjergsø's bar, and personally I am not a huge fan of them. In Manhattan, my favorites are Blind Tiger, Barcade Chelsea, Good Beer, and ABC Beer. Enjoy your visit and cheers!

 

There's truth to both sides of this equation.

Given their prowess across several styles, Treehouse obviously knows how to brew. Like, really knows how to brew.

I do think they'd struggle to scale up nationally or even regionally and keep their recipes at similar proportions. Even hoppy beers at 5+ pounds per barrel aren't really money makers on a large scale.

 

Really. Do some folks not understand this?

 

Never? You just can't scale up something 10x and have it be the same. Terroir, ever heard of it? Its is a sense of place, esp relating to local water, yeasts and flora. French cheese caves, Rodenbach foeders, local wine yeast on grapes etc. Same with Heady Topper and Hill Farmstead. Many generations of cultivated yeast, specific to that location and environs. Sure you can have a recipe, even a commercial yeast strain. But variables of equipment, brewer knowledge and skill, local water, even seasonal temp changes. Also factor barley and hops, variable to each season.
And why would you want to? Fresh and local. Not shipping for weeks across the country, affected by bad temps and storage. This is the greatest thing about local craft brewing. Most areas have their own good, local craft brews. ( Most) Think about this. Take pizza, 10 stores all pizza has similar ingredients. 1 is stand out, why?

 

It seems that there is a lot of talk comparing beers, which I guess is OK but seems a bit off track as far as the original post is concerned.

I think this thread speaks to the polarization of the industry. You have a bunch of breweries with very small distribution footprints that make exceptional beer (and plenty that make junk beer but that is a separate topic) - so take the beer off the table. It doesn't matter if Grimm or Treehouse or Trillium or XYZ is "best" - at the end of the day they may be personal favorites of a lot of people but arguing "best" seems pointless in context of the thread. The point seems to be more "can these beers be scaled up" in terms of distribution, not can they be copied, cloned, or otherwise represented by a different brewery. I don't believe they can be distributed nationally, maybe not even regionally, and maintain what they have now.

In my opinion, there is a "tier" (for lack of a better word) of breweries with the scale to deliver good to great beer with wide distribution and excellent quality. Whether those beers are "world class" is beside the point - I won't turn down a SN Pale, Harpoon IPA, SA Rebel Rouser, or a Stone Enjoy By. They are quality brews that are available for an arguably reasonable price just about anywhere.

The other end of the spectrum is the brewer who makes exceptional beers, their distribution is quite limited, and their prices are higher - some only distribute to the end of the driveway. It seems to me they are leveraging that freshness and using that limited availability to their advantage - and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Sell every drop you make, then make some more - they will come. To pick on one of the examples mentioned, I have had Grimm beers here in MA and in my opinion they must not travel well. My impression was good not great and not worth the price or deserving of the hype. If I could drive ten miles and get those beers fresh, then maybe my perception would be changed. Grimm fans put away the pitchforks - t wasn't that the Grimm beer was poor quality - it just didn't match up with what people living closer to the source were saying.

I don't see the problem with these small scale beers being limited and not available everywhere. In MA, I can drive to TreeHouse or Trillium if I want to for that experience - super-fresh beer straight from the source. IF I lived in California and could get those beers via distribution, would the quality be the same? I think not - I certainly did not think the Grimm beers I have had were accurate representation of the brewers' intent by the time I got them. It seems that these types of breweries will exist in most states and they don't have to replicate each other. However, the question becomes can they survive with only local-ish distribution. I think a lot of us have a "Brewery Fabulous" somewhere within easy driving distance. To expect those beers, depending on the style, to be the same if they were distributed further seems unrealistic.

 

Well said all around, and I'll just add that re: freshness, how many of us have ever had the big names at their freshest? How many of us have had a draught of Stone IPA or Sierra Nevada Torpedo pulled basically from the tank, or at the least handed a bottle directly off the line? Because that's what folks are setting the baseline with re: Tree House, et al. My guess is that, while folks may have different personal taste preferences, they'd find that even large scale brews taste markedly different after being transported across the country and sitting on a shelf, even if purchased relatively fresh.

IMO, it really is apples and oranges: small batch, zero distro (beyond the driveway, as you so well put it) breweries are fundamentally different than large scale distribution breweries. Tons of room in the ballpark for both, to be sure. Just an exercise in futility to pit them against each other, IMO.

 

Larry, what is the 'science' on why these beers need to be consumed at (or very near) the source?

Is it a freshness aspect? If so, why do these beers require they be consumed within one week (or some similar very short timeframe)?

Is it a transport issue? What happens to these beers if they are trucked more than 10-20 miles from the brewery?

Permit me to provide a bit of context here with my experience of a 6-pack (cans) of Firestone Walker Union Jack that I bought super fresh; I posted this in a previous thread:

“I had a recent experience with a 6-pack of Union Jack IPA in cans. I purchased that 6-pack fresh (couple of weeks after canning). I placed that 6-pack into my refrigerator and started drinking one within a day of purchase. I was really disappointed in the first 3 cans from that 6-pack. 'Evil' thoughts like "they must have changed the recipe" popped into my mind. About a month later I drank the 4th can that beer was wonderful. It took about 6 weeks after canning (and cold storage) for that beer to reach its peak. A very strange experience indeed.

Cheers!

Edit: David Walker of Firestone Walker seems to agree with me:

“Walker, upon taking his first sip of Union Jack in a can, noted that despite the “freshness craze” going around, he thought the beer was “a little young,” and when pressed noted that he likes his Union Jack, “aged about 45 days. It let’s the malt catch up a bit.”

http://www.cabrewmasters.com/news/firestone-walkers-lion-visits-new-venice-beach-den-cans/

Cheers!

 

This forum is awesome. All someone needs to do is start a new thread by mentioning Tree House, Trillium, NE IPA's, juice bombs, etc. and it starts a whole new shit show that goes in 8000 directions that are mostly unrelated to the original question being asked and usually just someone's opinion about this beer being better than that beer.

Widely distributed breweries matching Treehouse? Probably none if they want to mass distribute as they are completely different business models. Stone with their Enjoy By Series, Lagunitas with Born Yesterday, and now even Sam Adams attempting with Rebel Raw are trying to capitalize on the fresh IPA craze but they are all still limited by distribution. All good IPA's (not sure about the SA Rebel Raw as I haven't tried it), but obviously not the same style of IPA. I had a 1 day old Stone Enjoy By 2/14/16 Unfiltered and it was superb. As good as Tree House, maybe, in it's own way.

I think the issue is in the distribution and what happens to the beer over the time it gets packaged and in your hands. Tree House is at the top of the freshness chain with their current business model. At Tree House, the beer does not sit in a warehouse, on a truck, in a stockroom or on a shelf. The can comes off the line and out the door and into the trunk of your car. I used to be able to pickup Surly Abrasive, Furious or whatever that was days old. Now that they grown, those days are long gone. I was at a tasting a few months ago and had Coffee Bender that was packaged that day. !005 different beer than what you can buy in a store. Anybody remember how much better less than one day old 2004 Budweiser Born On Date tasted as compared to regular off the shelf Bud tasted? Sorry I forgot, nobody on this sight would even think about drinking a Budweiser

Toppling Goliath is trying to do this by contracting operations with Brew Hub in Florida but the beer isn't on the same level as what comes out of the Decorah IA brewery. The original small batch PseudoSue that was brewed in Decorah was one of those Citra hopped mind blowing IPA/PA's that everyone in the US wanted to trade for. Now that it's found it's way into multi-state distribution thanks to TG's agreement with Brew Hub, it's no longer as highly sought after. Part of that has to do with the beer itself as the mass produced version is simply not at the same level. It's still good, but not "mind-blowing" like the Decorah batches. I call it Pseudopseudo Sue. The original was murky and looked like orange juice. The Brew Hub version looks like every other regular clear IPA so of course the mouthfeel is different as well. Until I see that they can ultimately replicate the original on Brew Hub's much larger production system, I don't see it happening.

I was in Seattle and Portland last September when all the local breweries were releasing their fresh hop beers. I've never had anything like some of them. They are simply best when they are that fresh. I brought home several cases of Fremont Brewing Fresh Hop Cowiche Canyon and it was just not the same after being in a can for a period of time. All of these NE juice bombs would not get the same hype if they ALWAYS sat in a distribution channel.

Anyway, I just love the fact that we've got it made right now as far as beer drinkers. Great new and amazing beer is always available from your local liquor store, your local brewery and from great trading partners around the country. Right now the NE style IPA's are all the craze, and I would expect that some unknown creative brewer will change a process or use a new type of hop that turns the beer drinking world on it head again in the very near future. I can't wait to see what we'll be looking at a couple of years from now. I remember when Miller Clear was going to be the next big thing.

And I only drifted in 17 different directions and sorry for rambling...

 

You have hit upon the crux of the issue...taste is subjective, and how many widely distributed beers have we actually experienced fresh (presuming that is the intent). Unlike my products where there is science involved in "best by" dates, beer isnt like that. We have both had beers "past their prime" that conform to our tastes better than when they were fresh. Sam Adams barrel room tripel comes to mind for me. But you alsoknow as well as I that having fresh IPA is an obsession, and on tap at the brewery some consider aged. Everybody has their sweet spot, and I dont mind a bit of age on the hop bombs to restore the balance.

To me it boils down to the fundamental differences in the business rather than the beer itself. Does the brewer want to produce good to great beers in larger volumes, or do they want to retain that experimental spirit and make much less volume of exceptional beer? Where it doesnt work is the combination of small, exclusive, expensive.....and poor quality. Obviously the brewery conrols volume whether intentionally or other constraints.

I consider ten to twenty miles as really local. Within fifty miles is local, and up to say Portland, ME is close enough for jazz. That said, there is a difference even with my favorite Allagash beers when consumed in the tap toom versus a bottle I buy closer to home. Distance isnt the enemy as much as time aided by temperaturre. Reactions take place, some favorable, some not. But whether the changes are good or bad is up to the consumer. In my example of Grimm, I dont believe the beer was at its best based on the reviews and commentary in threads...almost to the point of wondering if it was the same beer.

 

Okay, interesting perspective . I understand where you are coming from now, but I still think taking great beer and making it more readily available is a win for everyone. You can still meet great people and go to gatherings but you can drink good beer while chatting, rather than waiting in line for it.

 

Larry, was your Grimm beer dated? Do you have any way of knowing how old that beer was?

There is no doubt that time & temperature has it impacts on beer.

I homebrew a minimum of 4 batches of IPA a year (in 2015 it was 5 batches). I 're-learn' with every one of those batches that hoppy beers 'evolve' over time. For my homebrewed hoppy beers the beer consistently reaches its peak of flavor at around 4 weeks post bottling and then it slowly loses hop aroma and by around the 3 month mark the hop flavor is markedly diminished as well. I once bought a case of Troegs Nugget Nectar that was just 2 days old (post bottling) and I was shocked at how non-good the first bottle of that beer was (about 3 days old at that point). I actually had to place that case in my basement and wait a week before that beer tasted good to my palate. A brewer very close to me of Tired Hands just stated canning their beers three weeks ago (only sold at the brewery). On their cans they state: "The beer in this can is hyper fresh, unfiltered and fragile. Enjoy the contents ASAP for a beautiful and befuddling organoleptic experience." In other words the 'message' is that this beer needs to be consumed right away. While I am an advocate that hoppy beers should not be aged many months, the notion that the beer should only be sold at the brewery and consumed ASAP since it is a "hyper fresh" beer just sounds silly to me. Just my thoughts on this topic.

Cheers!

 

If replicating what is basically what you think is really good beer, well got great news... there's many great breweries out there making great beer just like Treehouse.. there's so much good beer out there it's not even funny...

some of them don't even make IPAs either

 

Larry,

I neglected to discuss in my previous reply the topic of quality of packaging lines. The majority of the breweries that are producing 'hazy IPAs' are relatively new (just a few years old) so hopefully they have modern bottling/canning lines which have low TPO (Total Packaged Oxygen) levels off the line. If this is not the case then it is possible that the beer will show signs of oxidation (i.e., hop fade) in a short(er) period of time. If this is the case then it is a bloody shame; those breweries should not be 'cheapening out' as regards to purchasing packaging lines considering they have a significant portion of their beer portfolio being hoppy beers.

Cheers!

 

Sorry Jack -- I'm gonna stick to my regiment of drinking my IPAs asap. Perhaps your palate was just "out of whack" the nights you had those first 3 UJ's? No offense to Firestone Walker -- but it seems kinda coincidental that DWs preference to age FWUJ 45 days is consistent w the earliest beer age that most consumers can procure the brew across the country. I'm calling BS on that. Wouldn't it be great for all the mass market IPA brewers if they could develop a recipe that tastes fresher as the beer ages ...day 60 or so is optimal -- just mega fresh squeezed hop spectacular (w/the perfect malt balance....if that floats your boat)--- then either stays that way ad infinitim or self destructs depending on brewer preference.......

 

Any examples of a craft Brewer using inferior /old canning equipment that is contributing too much o2 and short shelf life to its offerings? It's unlikely any old equipment would be cost effective to run/maintain even if it did still exist. Calling BS on that as well.

 

Chip, please feel free to do what you want.

My palate is not out of whack.

Have a nice day.

 

BS to you as well!

 

2 week old UJ out here in AZ, and let me tell you, my friend, it's a treat indeed! Such, pardon the term, clarity of aroma and taste -- absolutely spectacular!

But isn't that the point of this thread? You've had Trill and TH fresh off the line. Can you say the same about UJ or Sculpin? Until you have, and notwithstanding all the other differences between large scale production breweries and local small batch outfits, can we even compare the two?

 

I see Trillium being distributed pretty soon, maybe not though, they might lose their nich-y-ness but they would be the counter-child or arch nemesis to Treehouse. If there beer is selling out instantly, there is no reason to distribute.