Impostor Lagers

Yes, that's what I was getting at... Thanks for spoiling my revelation. Asshole.

J/k

But... IS THERE? Or is the temperature constant? Or does it vary between brewer?

 

Are there any legal restrictions? Can a beer legally be labeled as a lager if it is fermented with ale yeast or vice versa? If so I'm sure someone will take up the issue eventually.

 

Long lagering times let the yeast turn some alcohols into esters, making a fruitier beer. This is why doppelbocks, typically lagered much longer than pils, have a fruitier flavor for the most part.

Also, some brewers use cold-fermented ale yeasts to create lager-like beers. Scrimshaw is one of these beers from what people say.

 

The problem lies with the origins. From Britain came ales and porters (yes, two different classes) and American brewers obviously brewed these. Then with the German influx came lagers.Now, you can brew Aes and Porters in the same way but lagers require a different approach and when American brewers incorporated lager brewing this required some organisation.By then, Porter brewing was only a tiny proportion of output (maybe 1%) so it was lumped together with ale brewing.Though Wahl's 1937 "Beers from the expert's standpoint" clearly separates them;
“Differences in Ale and Stout Brewing
The difference in the production of ale and stout consists mainly in the characteristics of the malt and in the treatment of the product after fermentation, ale being produced from pale, or low kiln-dried malt, stout from a mixture of pale malt, caramel malt, and black malt.
Germany, being more methodical, had legislated and legally lagerbier is;

• - beer which has undergone lagering, i.e. a long period of cold storage where the temperature is gradually reduced to around 0º C.

• a bottom-fermenting beer of around 12º Plato

• Notice that there has never been any legal requirement for ales and porters to be top fermented nor lagers to be bottom fermented. Kolsch is top fermented but as it is lagered it is legally a lager.An Obergäriges Lagerbier to be exact.The nature of yeast used is historical accident , warm fermenting favoured top fermenting strains and over time cold fermenting favoured bottom fermenters. But the yeast doesn't (or shouldn't) determine the beer, the yeast is selected to brew what's been chosen.So if I paint something with yacht varnish it doesn't make it into a yacht.But if painting a yacht I'd use a varnish designed for the job.

 

Not really. The current US regulations are very vague and no longer mention "top fermenting" or "bottom fermenting" yeast as they did in the decade after Repeal. The only thing that legally differentiates ale, stout or porter from lager are the former styles should be fermented at "...a comparatively high temperature...". See TTB's Basic Mandatory Labeling Information for MALT BEVERAGES Chapter 4 Class and Type Designation, where, other than Geographically-named styles, the main aspect of the definitions is the redundant phrase:

Many US ales and porters in the pre-craft era were fermented with the brewery's regular "house" lager yeast. Surviving examples include Yuengling's Lord Chestefield Ale and Porter, Rainier Ale and, supposedly, the current Miller-brewed Ballantine XXX Ale that has been devestated by owner/marketer Pabst Brewing Co.

 

That was not the case in the US, where the Federal Alcohol Administration Act - passed after Repeal in 1930s and still law today (after numerous amendments and changes, including the newer beer "class" definitions I linked to above) - did define lagers and ales & porters by type of fermentation, as well as by OG and ABV.

The Wahl & Wahl book from which you quote disagreed with those definitions (and similar pre-Pro ones), as noted in their
CHAPTER 11 - NEW EFFORTS AT REGULATIONS and CHAPTER 12 - MACKINAC ISLAND CONFERENCE.

 

I was basically referring to the definitions from the countries which originated the types.I added the Wahl's statement ro indicate that the US as well differentiated between ales and stouts. Lawmakers do do some strange things as in Texas where IIRC , lagers over a certain strength were defined as ales.
I think that the Germans should be allowed to decide what a lager is and the UK what comprises ale or stout.It's not difficult to comprehend and removes a whole host of anomalies.

 

Citra Mantra is on tap at the brewery. and its delicious and definitely a lager

 

Jon, I did notice a vinuous quality and haze in a 1 year old St. Victorious Doppelbock; I discussed it here: http://www.beeradvocate.com/communi...attle-of-troegenator-vs-st-victorious.146974/

Cheers!

Jack

 

Been a while since I've seen it around town, but I'd bet I can find a basket of it sitting fallow at one of the local packies.

I'll look into it.

 

Now *this* is an excellent an informative post. Love it!

 

Boy, you really want to piss off the Irish, Czechs, and others, don't you? LOL!! But, your point is well taken. This really shouldn't be that hard.

I'm a a geek -- I think this thread is cool.