IPA/NEIPA off flavors

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by Curmudgeon, Jan 10, 2018.

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  1. Curmudgeon

    Curmudgeon Savant (1,110) May 29, 2014 Massachusetts
    BA4LYFE Society

    I've brewed a few batches of NEIPA with varying success. The ones that I did not like had rubbery, hot Band-Aid, medicinal smells and sometimes tastes to them. As bad as that sounds, they were still drinkable and I even had some people claim to not pick up on that stuff (yes, maybe just being nice). For a while now I was thinking it was the Simcoe. All these batches had Simcoe in them and I drank some commercial examples that, to me at least, showed similar characteristics. In between these batches, I brewed some Hefes, a Kolsch, a couple Saisons, and a cider and they all came out fine so I am assuming my procedures, cleaning, water, etc. are decent. It's something to do with IPAs. I searched on these forums a lot and was able to find a few examples of BAs expressing similar woes with their IPAs. I think there was some poor guy who gave up brewing them altogether!!! I hope he's recovered since then.

    "Hop burn" was a common theme in a lot of the threads. I guess we can get this when using excessive amounts of hops in our beers. However, there are BAs using incredible amounts of hops and claiming continued success. Other theories blame certain varieties. I was (and still kind of) convinced that I simply discovered that Simcoe gave me these unpleasant smells/flavors. I bet if I drank a Tree House beer with Simcoe in it I wouldn't feel the same though.

    I brewed a few batches with tiny amounts of Simcoe and still got these off smells/flavors. I started thinking about the IPAs/NEIPAs I brewed that I loved. One difference I noted was the use of some kind of hop filter for my hop additions. When I first started brewing, I would always use muslin hop bags. The disagreeable smells and flavors starting happening when I started going commando at all times. I felt that going commando was the best method because you would get all that you could from the hops. They'd dissolve better and swim freely in the wort. But at the levels I was using (12-16oz per 5 gallons), is that too much for commando? @invertalon You've had great success with your NEIPAs and I know you use HEALTHY amounts of hops in your beers. Do you use a hop spider, muslins bags, etc. or do you go commando? For all - kettle additions, WP, fermentation/biotransformation hops, DH, etc.?

    Another area that I thought could be a factor is pH. We know pH is important for brewing beer but is it even more important when using a large amount of hops? I'm reading about it now and I think I'm going to need some time to absorb what I'm reading. I understand a lower pH results in a generally livelier and crisper beer and a higher pH can result in a dull-tasting beer but I know there's more to it than just that. I have a cheap-o $15 pH meter that I've use a few times but I think I need to find a way to measure my pH accurately for every brew that I do. Is it possible I'm over acidifying my mash and that could result in these flavors? I use Brewcipher. I know the mash pH calc is just an estimate and I should take my own reading to confirm but I use 10% Phosphoric based on Brewcipher's estimates.

    Lastly, while reading about pH I came across an interesting technique for the first time -

    The reduction in solubility of hop acids can be seen during fermentation. After wort is pitched with yeast and the pH falls during fermentation, most of the unisomerized hop resins will come out of solution again. They become part of the brown gunk that floats on top of the Kraeusen which, if a smooth bitterness is desired, should be removed via blow-off tube, skimming and not allowed to fall back into the beer [Narziss, 2005][Kunze, 2007].

    Based off of the above, if I'm going commando with 12-16oz of hops per 5 gallon batches, could these unisomerized hop resins that fall back into the beer be the culprits to making my IPAs harsh and rubbery/medicinal?

    Also wondering if any of you engage in this technique of extracting this "brown gunk" from the Kraeusen. If so, how do you do it? Sanitized SS spoon?

    Sorry for the long post. I was ecstatic with a few of my NEIPAs and I'm trying to get back to that point. Thanks for any responses. Always love hearing what you guys have to say.
     
    JayJanes and ECCS like this.
  2. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Savant (1,149) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    Are you familiar with chlorophenol? Keep chlorine out of your water, and don't use garden hoses, etc. A crushed Campden tablet per 10 gallons of water will immediately remove chlorine (must be added prior to mashing or adding ingredients). Hope this helps.
     
    SFACRKnight likes this.
  3. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Initiate (0) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    Any bittering hops in those off-flavor batches?
     
  4. invertalon

    invertalon Pooh-Bah (2,249) Jan 27, 2009 Ohio
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    I've had no issues with off-flavors in my IPA's, but I second what @dmtaylor had mentioned... Are you using Campden to ensure no chlorine/chloramines?

    I go all commando in my hopping at all times. On the way from the kettle to the fermenter, I usually just let it go through a paint strainer bag to filter out the hop matter (along with oxygenate a bit before adding more pure O2).

    For my dry hop (usually anywhere from 8-12oz typical), all pellet goes right in. Beer is crashed before transfer into the keg, so all the hop matter drops to the bottom below my spigot level. So I don't get much carryover into the keg at all. It packs to the bottom quite well.

    Going forward, I likely will be changing my IPA process to see if I can improve it further by reducing oxygen a bit more during dry hopping.

    Still working out these details on this process... But I will just need to experiment!

    As far as water, my mash pH is typically around 5.25-5.30 I target for my IPA's. I have not bothered to check later on down the process. I go high sulfates as well, usually 250ish and chloride kept around 75.
     
  5. ECCS

    ECCS Pundit (755) Oct 28, 2015 Illinois

    What is your water source and water treatment?

    Is there a common yeast that you use with these?

    Kegging or bottle conditioning?
     
  6. minderbender

    minderbender Initiate (0) Jan 18, 2009 New York

    In fairness to @Curmudgeon, the original post expressly states, "In between these batches, I brewed some Hefes, a Kolsch, a couple Saisons, and a cider and they all came out fine so I am assuming my procedures, cleaning, water, etc. are decent." It seems unlikely it's a chlorine problem, because why would that be specific to NEIPAs?
     
  7. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    Band aid says chlorophenols to me as well. Does your water get treated with chloromine or chlorine?
     
  8. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    Yeast strains.
     
  9. Curmudgeon

    Curmudgeon Savant (1,110) May 29, 2014 Massachusetts
    BA4LYFE Society

    Sorry sorry, my bad guys. I failed to mention that I use 100% distilled and build up with Gypsum and Calcium Chloride based on what profile I want. My profile has generally been about 160 Chloride to 80 Sulfate.

    I've used London III a bunch and had varying success. It's funny, my two favorites were brewed with Gigayeast's Vermont yeast.

    I clean with PBW, rinse a lot and I use Star San to sanitize (mixed only with distilled water). I keg and I dismantle kegs and faucets after every use. I use a CamelBak wire brush to clean diptubes (thanks again @Soneast). I dismantle QDs as well. Basically, I feel that my cleaning procedures are sound and I am avoiding chlorinated water.

    @invertalon Interesting! Your methods and reported successes basically crush my theories! Crud. Thanks for the response. Heyyyy, did you reverse your chloride/sulfate ratio recently? I thought you were always heavy on the chloride!

    I agree that chlorine and chlorophenols is a good place to start. I just don't think they're being introduced to my water/beers.

    ETA - bittering hops. Very very little. I forget exacts right now but I've used Citra and Magnum to bitter. Very little though....IIRC for Citra like 0.5oz at 30min or something like that. Heavy WP hops (maybe around 7oz, i.e. 3 Citra 3 Amarillo and 1 Simcoe) and then I split my dry hops 50/50 between biotransformation and keg DH (maybe like 3oz each for a total of like 6oz for DH)
     
    #9 Curmudgeon, Jan 10, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
    Soneast likes this.
  10. ECCS

    ECCS Pundit (755) Oct 28, 2015 Illinois

    While different than the flavors you were describing, I was getting a vodka like finish on my NEIPAs using L3. I ended up pitching less than the brewers friend recommendations to fix it. When I pitched ~220B cells in ~1.060 wort, it would finish it about 3 days. These beers were the ones I identified as having some fusel alchohal flavor. Recently I’ve pitched ~170B cells in ~1.060 wort with much better success... finishing in about 7 days.

    Maybe rethink your pitch rate and ferment temp for L3 beers?

    Also, @Curmudgeon , really interested to hear if others have a comment on the “Brown gunk” on top of krausen. I’ve seen it when I put in my fermentation dry hop. I don’t see any downside to scooping it out with a sanitized SS spoon.
     
  11. Curmudgeon

    Curmudgeon Savant (1,110) May 29, 2014 Massachusetts
    BA4LYFE Society

    Awesome. I did not think of this and I have not read this anywhere. I will definitely consider this. When you say "vodka like finish" that very well could be what I'm smelling/tasting. I don't know if I'm good at describing flavors so we could be on the same page.
     
    ECCS likes this.
  12. minderbender

    minderbender Initiate (0) Jan 18, 2009 New York

    I believe the Germans call this "braun hefe" (brown yeast), and they commonly remove it. If you search for that term you will find a lot more information on it. I have observed it from time to time, but I have never bothered removing it.
     
    TheBeerery and Curmudgeon like this.
  13. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    Who provides your water? Some packaged water still contains chloromines for shelf stability.
    a quick google search netted a few companies that use filtered metro tap water for their water. If that water is treated with chloromines, well it may still be chloromines.
     
    #13 SFACRKnight, Jan 10, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
    ECCS likes this.
  14. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    The OP stated: "I use 100% distilled".

    Is your question directed elsewhere?

    Cheers!
     
  15. Curmudgeon

    Curmudgeon Savant (1,110) May 29, 2014 Massachusetts
    BA4LYFE Society

    I get the Stop&Shop Acadia Pure Distilled Water. I thought distilled had to be "blank" (I could be way off). I wouldn't think places could label filtered tap water as distilled. I could see "Spring" water being simply filtered water though. Anyway, you could have a great point here @SFACRKnight I'll look into it! Thanks!
     
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  16. invertalon

    invertalon Pooh-Bah (2,249) Jan 27, 2009 Ohio
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    @Curmudgeon

    Nope! Always high sulfates for mine. Never have ventured over 75 chloride with my IPAs. Really like the results I had had so I stick with it!
     
    Curmudgeon likes this.
  17. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Savant (1,149) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    When's the last time you replaced your hoses?

    Also, since you are experiencing this with IPAs, I wonder if dry hops are contaminating the beer.

    Could be both too.
     
  18. Curmudgeon

    Curmudgeon Savant (1,110) May 29, 2014 Massachusetts
    BA4LYFE Society

    I mash in a rectangular cooler that I've outfitted with an SS ball valve (cleaned before and after every brew) - that goes through a high temp silicon tube. I actually have never replaced that. But every time I start my boil, I clean my mash tun, breaking down the SS ball valve and I soak the silicon tube in a hot PBW mix and rinse.

    Boil, chill with my copper IC indoors with lid on and some tin foil. Then I open my ball valve on my SS brewtech 10 gallon kettle and fill my carboy through a sanitized SS strainer just to grab some of the bigger junk. Then pour my yeast starter in (sometimes decanted sometimes not). Shake like a madman for a few minutes and store in my basement at 62-72F depending on style. For these NEIPAs, I'll add the first dose of dry hops (biotransformation hops) on day 3 or 4. I spray the packaging with star san and try to gently drop the pellets into the fermenter. I do get little blips of splashing as I've used glass carboys up to this point (SS Brewtech Brewbucket arrived the other night!!!).

    For my keg DH I use one of those SS 300 micron cylindrical filters that you can fit into corny kegs. Sanitized keg and filter of course. I "purge" (I know there's debate and misconception here but I do it anyway) my keg with CO2 and (/sigh), use an auto-siphon to rack into the DH keg. (It's a pain but I spend a lot of time cleaning and sanitizing the auto-siphon. I hate the thing. It's an abomination and I can't wait to toss it and just use gravity with the new Brewbucket)

    After 3-7 days (depending on how long I want to DH) I use a NEW jumper line to rack off of the DH keg into the serving keg.

    I concede though, I could be contaminating somewhere along the line. Other beers have tasted really good though. I admit, I do a lot more transferring with these NEIPAs than with any of my other beers.
     
  19. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Nope, you are not "way off" here. Distilled water is 100% H2O with nothing else.

    The distillation process is the water is boiled into water vapor and then permitted to condense back into liquid. No chemicals or minerals will be in the resulting liquid (100% distilled water).

    Cheers!
     
  20. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    A quick search on the net brings back results that would be contrary to what you're saying Jack.
     
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