Is German beer really THAT good?

“…I did some research and found some craft beer stores here. Now I have a new perspective.”

Please report back on how your German beer discovery process proceeds.

I do not want to discourage you from continued posting in the Beer Talk forum but for your consideration there is the Germany forum where you can post as well.

Prost!

 

The same goes for beer. Which is why this entire thread, and threads like it, ask unfair questions. Of course there's great beer and knowledgeable beer drinkers in each country. You simply need to know where to look. I would say the only issue is when we try to compare countries in a futile attempt at crowning a paper champion.

Beer isn't a contest, it's a wonderful drink with world class examples to be found all around the globe.

 

You can't judge the quality of a country's beer by judging which country's mediocre beer is slightly less objectionable.

 

Awesome! Can't wait for my free case of Enjoy By 10.18.2019!

 

The only non-remarkable German brew I've experienced so far has been Hofbrau Oktoberfest, due to the green bottle treatment. Besides that, I've quite liked the ones I've drank throughout my voyages

 

Here I have really, really bad news, especially if you are a German Fernsehbier ("TV beer," i.e. nationally advertised on TV.) brewer. A huge amount of youth today in Germany reject beer as their grandpa's drink, uncool, boring and just NOT an option for them. Their go-to drink is a Red Bull or juice mix with vodka or some other hard liquor. Women, especially the older set, have grasped onto the Hugo craze, which is a drink mixed with Prosecco and Aperol, a cheap Italian champagne mixed with sweet, fruity, orange-like liqueur. So, if your next generation of customers is turned off by your product, then eventually the majority of your customers will die out in the next 20 years. That's why German Fernsehbier brewers have almost all embraced the Gemischtgetränke (Schöfferhofer Grapefruit is the prime example that's sold in the USA, and has been very warmly received in the US and seems to be a success for the Radeburger Gruppe in the USA, even moreso than it's Claustaler Non-Alcoholic beers) as their attempt to lure the young and female crowd back to beer. Demographics is destiny. The Gemischtgetränke has been both a success, for it's lured a few Red Bull/Vodka teenies and women, and also a complete failure in getting those same teenies to discover a love of Fernsehbier. It's not a stretch to say that these Fernsehbier are a dying breed.

Now... there are some hipsters, and a few people who've discovered the German upstarts that produce American-style craft beers (Crew Repulic, BrauKunstkeller, Rattshern, Camba Bavaria, and a few others), but they still don't make more than 0.01% of the overall market. Nonetheless, they're almost the sole sector of the beer industry that's growing and thriving. There's also the small local brewers in smaller towns, mostly in Bayern, which focus on producing really great quality products, and many of them are doing well, or at least aren't dying out, i.e. the Bamberg model that @herrburgess mentioned, as well as Faust Brauerei (known as Miltenberger in the US), Schönramer, and many others, which also have experimented in some American craft-beer styles. There are many others which produce a great quality product, but they're hard to find and only available locally.

I have a funny story from a few weeks ago. I had some American guests who are beer geeks visiting town (Frankfurt) and took them to the only place (restaurant/bar) to get craft beer, Naïv, and while sipping on our beers, for me a Brew Dog Punk IPA, a Backbone Splitter IPA,... and a guy 20-s/th sitting near us dressed in a suit, obviously a banker dude, lifts up his bottle of Tegernseer Hell and starts raving how it's the best beer in the world. I laughed kind-heartedly and said, yes, it's a good beer, but it's not even the best Helles on the menu, for Augustiner Bräu's Edelstoff takes that prize for me, but also, has he tried any other style of beer on the menu, an IPA a LIBERTINE BLACK ALE from Brew Dog? His face screwed up and looked like I mentioned he try drinking boiled ****** juice. "That's not beer," he muttered and went back to his own world. That sums up a lot, don't you think? Preconceived prejudices that is a huge hinderance to these craft brewers and craft brew bars in Germany

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Well, it's good to see you've 1) been shocked out of the common mythology that German beer is the best in the world, 2) and realized you had it pretty damn good beer-wise in Usa, 3) live in a completely different world with completely different background and outlook on its beer, 4) figured out that a) Fernsehbier sucks and b) most German beer drinkers don't believe in or care about variety and prefer to live in their own little insular beer-world and 5) realized you gotta work a little, ok A LOT, to get some really outstanding beer, which for their styles, are arguably the best beers in the world. Unlike in Usa with it's dumbass laws concerning beer that it can't be shipped, mailed or sold cross borders or even across town, almost any beer is available in Germany online for a price, not a high price compared to what you'd pay in America for that exact same bottle, but for Germany compared to the Fernsehbier swill, double to quadruple the price... not including shipping costs.

For lost more info, please join us in the German forums, where we discuss, even lovingly argue (right Scott @herrburgess?) most of the points raised in this thread.

 

The beer in Germany was great and I think the atmosphere helped quite a bit.

 

In the BrewMaster’s Table Garrett Oliver wrote that getting a genuinely bad beer in Germany is difficult – and I 100% believe that. I think the “worst” beers in Germany are still head and shoulders above our absolute best adjunct and light lagers…which are at least 90% of the beers purchased in America. I believe that the Reinheitsgebot kept them from every making the beer equivalent of Del Taco and Taco Bell. I think Oettinger, Radeberger, Bitburger, Beck’s, Flensberger, Paulaner, etc. are the beer equivalent of Chipotle instead. Personally, I am okay with that. Do I wish everyone was drinking Mahr’s and Andechs? SURE. Then again, do I wish America was even drinking something as good as Beck’s? Looking at the bestselling beers around the world, Germany is one of the few places where theirs isn’t bad. Belgium isn’t even that lucky. That’s discounting the largest and most powerful state (Bavaria) having a penchant for legitimately really good beer. Ditto with cities like Koeln and Duesseldorf. I believe it was Mitch who was talking about QA/QC issues in the craft industry. Those factory-made pilsners might not be exciting, but they're consistent...and I do still believe they're a massive upgrade over the vast majority of beers sold in the US and around the world. I'm not talking craft - I'm talking about that tiny little 90% that we sometimes forget about on here.

It’s easy to get lost in the craft utopia and think it’s everywhere and that it’s bigger than it is. It ISN’T. I don’t like that – but it’s true. Most of the beer in the world is so-so at best and horrible at worst. Our US macros tend to be on the lower end of that spectrum, too. We’re not as bad as China, but our light lagers aren't even as good as the top sellers in Latin America. It’s easy to see all of the amazing craft beers available (like Stone) and thing great beer is everywhere. However, they're still small compared to the brewing industry giants like AB, MC, Heineken, etc.

In terms of what the average German knows about good beer – they certainly aren't going to sit down and talk to you about mosaic vs. cascade hops and their favorite sours. In my half-dozen trips over there I’ve had many a beer conversation with the locals they tend to know all of the various brands and what they do and don’t like about them. They usually have their favorite and just stick to it, which is unexciting, but understandable. Since nearly everything is at least pretty good – they also don’t have to really care. The average German has had about 50x the “good beer” in their life as the average American. You know – the 90% buying adjunct/light lagers. Hence it doesn’t matter to them. American beer was in horrible shape for decades and we've only recently (20 years) even had alternative options to what the big guys were selling. Germany's beer might have declined in that period of time...but they never even came close to experiencing what US beer was in the 1970's.

EDIT: I do think it's pretty cool that Greg is taking the time to bicker with us on here

 

China's two big ones, Yanjing and Tsingtao, are the cleanest tasting and most refreshing lagers I've ever had. Perhaps replace China with South Korea or Australia.

 

This is a very important point that is frequently overlooked by beer geeks. Despite recent declines, Germany still has an intact and pervasive beer culture where good (if not necessarily great) beer can be found pretty much any- and everywhere; and having this changes the game completely. Beer is no longer about the big, bad BMC bogeyman vs. everyone else (where the latter automatically becomes "better" just by being what BMC isn't); rather "better" beer (than the rest of the world) can be found any and everywhere, freeing up consumers from the Us vs. Them thinking and allowing them to simply enjoy whatever's on tap/in their glass pretty much wherever they may be. Not a bad way at all IMO to live -- and drink.

But instead of saying it myself, I'll let a (German native) commenter from a recent blog post on "craft" beer in a German publication do the talking:

"Bier ist, in Deutschland, zuerst einmal Kommunikation. Und zwar nicht Kommunikation über den Inhalt der Flasche oder des Glases, sondern Kommunikation mit den Leuten, die rechts und links an der Theke stehen oder sitzen. Und zwar über Wetter, die Arbeit, Politik, Fußball, Urlaub usw. Die Marke im Glas ist dabei wirklich sekundär.

Das schnöselige Getue (ich trink doch kein Lager und aus so einem Glas trink ich schon gar nicht) ist in der Tat kaum geeignet, Craftbeer in Dtld. populär zu machen Solange Leute beim einem Craftbeer zusammensitzen und nur über das Bier reden, das sie trinken, und das Bier das sie gestern getrunken haben, und welches sie als nächsten probieren wollen, solange ist noch nicht viel erreicht. Bislang ist es leider kaum möglich, in einer Kneipe ein Craftbeer zu trinken, ohne über Craftbeer zu reden."

Translation:

"Beer in Germany is first and foremost about community/communication. But not communication about the contents of a particular bottle or a glass, but communing/communicating with the people standing to your right and you left at the bar...about the weather, work, politics, soccer, vacation, etc. The brand in your glass is really secondary.

The snobby ado [around craft beer] ('I don't drink lager, and I won't drink beer from such and such a glass') is ill-suited to making craft beer popular in Germany. As long as people sit around with their craft beers talking only about craft beer -- the ones they are drinking, the ones they drank yesterday, and the ones they are going to drink next -- nothing much has been accomplished [from a cultural standpoint]. Up until now, it's been more or less impossible to sit in a bar and drink a craft beer without talking about craft beer."

 

The reason they didn't ask for a specific brand of beer is due to the way German breweries distribute their beer. A small brewery, relatively speaking, will distribute their beers over a 20 to 40 or 50 mile radius and will enjoy a near monopoly in bars within their territory. When you go beyond their range, you enter another brewery's territory where the situation is similar. Germans know whose beer is available in each area they live near so only need to ask for a dopplebock, etc.

 

Chris, first let me say that I agree with everything you stated in your post.

Permit me to take the discussion into a related but perhaps different direction.

While it is indeed true that the vast majority of beer consumed in the US are light tasting AAL beers, the ‘good news’ is that over the past few decades there has been a consistent and consistently growing trend to produce alternatives to these AAL beers: the US craft beer movement. The US craft beer market is now >10% of the beer market as measured by dollars and is approaching 10% (or maybe a bit over now) of the beer market by volume. The important part of this trend (or at least I think it is important) is that the growth has consistently been in double digits for quite some time. By no means do I think that craft beers will replace AAL beers as being the preferred drink (i.e., >50%) of the US beer market but the vibrancy of the craft beer movement means that today’s beer drinkers have lots of choices of US craft beers and for the next 5 years and beyond the choices will get even better.

For the majority of German beer drinkers the trend over the past few decades have been quite different. The typical German beer of Pils has for the most part been made to be less flavorful as was detailed by @felsenpils here: http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/fernseh-pils-a-thon-2013.87954/page-5#post-2552374

There are indeed many high quality breweries in Germany such as those located in Franconia, Koln, Dusseldorf, etc. but if you measure the German beers by volume consumption, those beers are the less flavorful Pils beer that BA felsenpils talks about.

I would not argue that a German beer likes the German brewed version of Beck’s is a ‘bad’ beer but the bad news as I see it is that the Beck’s of 2014 is less flavorful then the Beck’s of 1985. So, for those German beer drinkers who consume popular beers, the quality of those beers has declined over the last few decades. If this trend continues then the difference between a US popular beer and a German popular beer will be even less in another 10-20 years.

I am hoping that many of the ‘new’ trends in German Brewing for producing more flavorful beer (traditional and non-traditional beers) in Germany will take route and provide more and more choices or German beer drinkers. For instance, I view the growth of sales at both Faust Brauerei (known as Miltenberger in the US) and Schönramer as hopeful signs.

I am also hoping that Stone – Berlin is a big success which may motivate other entrepreneurial German brewers to think outside the box and provide alternative beers for German beer drinkers to drink.

It is all good!

Cheers!

Jack

 

Funny story regarding this oft stated observation. On my first trip to Germany (Autumn of 1990) I spent an evening at my hotel drinking beer with 4 or 5 young Englishmen (probably in their mid-20s then) and discussing beers from the different countries. They told me that they always took weekend trips to Germany for the beer. I asked why they didn't drink the great real ales available in their own country. One replied, "It's an old-man's drink for our grandparents." and they all readily agreed. "We like the flavor and kick of German loight lagah much better." Sound familiar?

Funny how the grass is always greener.

 

Some interesting anecdotal stories about how European (German and British) young beer drinkers eschew the beers of their parents/grandparents. My father’s preferred beer when I was a kid was Piels Genuine Draft but the bigger selling national beers of that era where Budweiser, Miller High Life, Schlitz, etc.

The biggest selling beers in the US today are Bud Light, Coors Light, Miller Lite, Budweiser, etc.

So, there is a little bit of a difference with Light beers being the big sellers but in the big scheme of beer markets there really is not too much difference from a Bud Light to a Budweiser.

So, it appears that the American youth really have no issues with drinking ‘old mans’ drinks.

Maybe the Marketing & Sales folk of the BMC breweries really know what they are doing in terms of marketing their beers vs. the breweries of Europe?

Cheers!

 

Yea, those young Germans sure do hate traditional beers. Just watch....

http://www.radio-bamberg.de/mediath...in-der-mahrs-braeu-bamberg-2014/#.VEQM6haa925

And before people chime in with the "Well, Mahr's has cultivated the youth through marketing, etc.", nearly every Bockbieranstich in the area draws crowds similar to this...and has done so for decades running. Again, you CANNOT separate German beer from German beer culture -- and to do so is to miss the point completely.

 

And since there's only one dopplebock to chose, there's no need to a give name.

 

Yep. And the Amish youth in PA love grooming horses and spiffing up their buggies so horse and buggie transpotion is not facing extinction either.

 

Yea, every good beer place worth its salt needs at least three or four Doppelbocks.

The majority of those in attendance are university students from throughout the whole of Germany. You should visit sometime and see for yourself!

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