Is this oxidation or just poor cleaning?

Did I read correctly that you cleaned your bottles on brew day? How were they stored between then and bottling day?

 

Without even getting to the rest... I'm... Star San? In your dishwasher detergent dispenser? I'm speechless. I'd love to see how much foam was created in there!

FWIW - it's *completely* unnecessary and probably not great for your dishwasher.

Some people use their dishwashers to sanitize *clean* bottles w/ a steam cycle and NO detergent (or star san)... but you could have stopped after the PBW soak/rinse and a rinse with star san.

On the rare occasions that I bottle, I start with clean bottles and submerge them in a bucket filled with Star San solution for a few minutes, then pour the sanizer out and store the bottles upside down in a case until ready to use.

All of this aside, it sounds from your description like you may have introduced more oxygen into some bottles than to others when filling them (e.g. by splashing, accidental introduction of air bubbles in tubing connecting bottling bucket spigot to bottling wand, or some other means). The 'bad' bottles will likely only get worse with time, and it's not a style that will age particularly well anyway, so I'd suggest enjoying them ASAP after they're fully carbonated.

 

Does the carbonation level in those bottles seem any different?

 

The fact that it's some bottles but not all leads me to believe it is either bottle cleanliness or oxygenation during bottling. When you were filling bottles did you have any air drawn in or bubbling in the filling line? That could cause the symptoms you describe. Some bottles filled quietly and gently some bottles got bubbled.

 

I think 'underdoing' it would be more of a factor, and logically would seem to be the only explanation for your issue. (However, if you think you've overdone it, then something else has to be involved here.) I don't think you can overdo sanitation. Since you use the word 'cardboardy' in your description, I think intermittent addition of oxygen is the issue here.

And multiple use of bottles should not be an issue. I've probably used some of mine 5-6 times.

 

It could be sort of a combination of over-doing it and under-doing it. If you use a bunch of PBW or OxyClean or whatever to clean the bottles, and then don't thoroughly rinse it out, it could cause the oxidation.

 

I was going to write something to the effect of this being a very far-fetched explanation for what is, at it's core, oxidation of some random number of bottles *probably* caused by bubbles in the bottle-filling process or perhaps too much headspace in some bottles...

Then I re-read the original post.

"Soaked in PBW for a few hours, then squirted some star san into each bottle...etc."

So... @Liberatiscioli - you didn't rinse the bottles after the PBW soak? Just added a bit of sanitzer and hoped that the dishwasher would take care of the rest? I would not bank on a normal residential dishwasher being able to throughly rinse the insides of beer bottles. As I mentioned earlier, some people will use steam to sanitize *clean* bottles in a dishwasher - and this generally works fine.

But... relying on a dishwasher to effectively spray up into each and every bottle? That's a stretch. Labware washers utilize individual 'wands' (jets) to spray up into the necks of inverted glassware to clean and rinse volumetric flasks etc. Normal home *dish*washers can't really do this well.

Given that? Cleanser residue contamination is (at least) a possibility.

For future reference:

PBW Soak.
Thorough hot water rinse.
Star san soak (or spray, if being conservative with it).
Invert bottles to drain out star san. (Can allow to dry upside down, or fill right away - doesn't matter.)

Skip the dishwasher.

 

Agree with the others, your chemicals for cleaning are creating off flavors. Dishwasher on sanitize function will sanitize by using heat to kill anything alive and that's all you need.

Pbw is oxyclean and trisodium phosphate. Star San also has phosphate in it. If it's not the oxygen liberated from oxy clean (and the oxygen liberated is not o2, it's o, which oxidizes way more), it could be phosphate contamination.

I use dish soap to clean bottles (dawn). Rinse well with plenty of water and then sanitize

 

Fyi, dms, is a vegetable, creamed corn smell, which is not what you are describing.

Why are you being so paranoid about contamination (to the point that you are covering so much)? Are you having trouble?

 

I've always heard it was Oxiclean and TSP substitute (sodium metasilicate)

 

The msds for pbw discloses that it contains phosphates. It lists sodium metasilicate at 30%. The remaining 70% isn't defined. It like like it still contains it. We've all assumed it does, because tsp is a great cleaner.

 

Yes, you are correct...PBW and TSP do contain phosphates, but TSP substitute does not...the latter is a great cleaner also and better for the environment. I make my own cleaner with TSP Substitute and Oxiclean...works great, rinses a little better and no phosphates...great reason to quit buying PBW at exorbitant prices. cheers

 

Yes, that sounds better. [Edited to add: step 2 isn't necessary and provides no benefit that I can think of. However, it also doesn't hurt.]

Bear in mind the bottles need to start out clean for this (or any) approach to work. By clean I mean free of any material stuck to the inside surface of the bottle (the outside doesn't really matter except for aesthetics). Many brewers would do a PBW soak first, and maybe use a bottle brush to remove any material from the inside of the bottle.

To be honest the difficulty of cleaning and sanitizing bottles, or alternatively the expense of buying new bottles, is a major shortcoming of this method of packaging homebrewed beer. I don't brew very often, but I find myself dreading the bottling process every time. But unlike you, I don't find myself in a position to keg, so I guess I'm stuck...

 

My 'cleaning' process is that immediately after pouring a bottle of homebrewed beer I pour out the sediment and perform a two step process of pouring some water in the bottle, placing my hand over the top, and vigorously shaking the bottle. This works for me with respect to removing 'stuff' from the bottle.

I then just sanitize the bottles prior to the bottling process.

Easy peasy lemon squeezey!

Cheers!

 

Jack, I wish that method worked for me. Even if I diligently rinse out my bottles immediately after pouring (with shaking), I find that there is often a film of organic material on the inside of the bottle, or sometimes a ring in the neck of the bottle (where the surface of the beer was).