Jumping right into AG?

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by TreyAD, Jun 17, 2016.

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  1. TreyAD

    TreyAD Initiate (0) Jun 16, 2016 Italy

    I am very new to homebrewing -so new, in fact, that I have not purchased a single piece of equipment- and I have put a lot of thought into the method I would like to start of with.

    I know that many experienced and well established homebrewers recomend the typical extract ---> partial mash ---> AG route. I do believe that this route has its merits and I know that extract brewing is not necessarily an inferior method; With that being said, there is something about being in complete control of your recipe and working with the grain that is appealing to me. I have spent months reading about this subject...John Palmer's How to Brew; various articles on the BA forums, BYO and Beersmith; Even more in depth texts such as 'Yeast' by Chris White and Jamil Zainasheff published by the Brewer's Association. I am aware of the various steps involved in mashing and how the varying temperatures can affect which sugars will be present in your fermentor. I am also aware that the Ph balance and mineral composition of your local water supply can greatly affect your mash.

    I plan on jumping into this hobby feet first with the full intention of this becoming a regular activity. My wife and I love a good brew and I have been thinking about this for a while now but have not had the chance to purchase equipment due to relocation concerns with my job. We will now be settling down for a few years and this is an opportunity for me to build up my arsenal of homebrewing equipment.

    With all of that being said; Reading something in a book and putting it into practice can be a lot more difficult than it may seem. Nothing beats trial and error. I would just like to know what the community here on BA thinks about jumping right into AG brewing. I dont mind purchasing the equipment because I am pretty sure that this is something that I will enjoy; I plan on repurposing some items (Igloo cooler into a mash/lauter tun).

    Also, I would like to do 3 gallon batches. What equipment would you guys/gals recomend for this batch size? I will EVENTUALLY move into 5 gallon batches so I do not mind buying bigger equipment to prepare for this. My question is this though: Will a 5 gallon secondary fermentation/conditioning glass carboy have too much headspace in it for a 3 gallon batch? I know that a primary fermentation vessel is not that much concern with the headspace because the CO2 displaces a lot of the O2 but the yeast is not as active during the conditioning phase so should I be worried about the headspace in my glass carboy?

    And another question (I know, this is exhaustive....please bare with me here): I know that a 5 gallon mash tun is fine for a 3 gallon batch but should i just go ahead and use an 8 gallon mash tun for my 3 gallon batches so that i will be prepared for the transition to 5 gallon? I know that a 5 gallon mash tun is perfectly fine for lower gravity (By lower i mean approx. 1.070 and below) wort but I have my eyes set on eventually brewing very robust beers such as RIS and Baltic Porters. I am basically trying to buy/make equipment that will allow me to make 3 gallon batches AND 5 gallons batches when I eventually go that route. I dont want to have a bunch of small equipment laying around that will be obsolete once I move to larger batch sizes.

    I apologize for the length of this post but I will be moving to Southern Italy and starting this hobby with no additional help from a seasoned home brewer (besides you guys). Any help would be greatly appreciated!

    ONE MORE THING. I will be living abroad so keep that in mind but what do you guys think about the following websites for equipment/ingredients? Any recomendations on quality internatonal shipping websites would also be super helpful!

    SsHomebrewtech
    Homebrewhardware
     
  2. TreyAD

    TreyAD Initiate (0) Jun 16, 2016 Italy

    It wont let me edit my post but I meant to say Ssbrewtech (not homebrew tech).
     
  3. Lukass

    Lukass Pooh-Bah (2,891) Dec 16, 2012 Ohio
    Pooh-Bah

    If I were you I'd just go straight into brewing 5-gallon batches. Have you looked into a 10-gal mash tun cooler? This would be ideal if you are planning on brewing big, dark beers. You also would not want that much headspace with a 3-gal batch in a 5 gal carboy. I think you'd end up paying more for equipment to accommodate a 3-gal batch than if you just bought the equipment necessary for a 5-gal batch and started from there. That's just my opinion though, obviously. Just trying to save you some money in the long run. Good luck!
     
  4. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    A five gallon carboy is fine for 3 gallon batches - just about right, I'd say, since if you want to end up with bottling 3 gallons, you will need about 3-1/2 gallons or so in your carboy (considering the amount of loss due to trub).

    Using an 8 gallon mash tun for 3 gallons can be done, but you will lose heat much more rapidly than if you mashed in a smaller mash tun. So you would only need to account for the extra heat loss, both during mash-in as well as during the mash.

    You will find that it takes about as much work to make 3 gallons as 5 gallons, so I think that eventually you will mostly be doing 5 gallon batches. So aim for the five gallon batch size in terms of equipment purchases, although you can still experiment with 3 gallon batches.

    For the five gallon batches, the 5 gallon carboy will not work for your primary (no head space). Thus you might want to consider purchasing an 8 gallon (or so) primary pail.
     
  5. TreyAD

    TreyAD Initiate (0) Jun 16, 2016 Italy

    I think that my biggest concern with the 5 gal batches is consuming all of that beer (48 bottles I believe) afterwards. It wont be such a big problem once I start networking with the locals in my area but I guess if that is my biggest concern then it could always be worse. hah. Another reason I like the idea of 3 gallon batches is the fact that I can do it inside. I dont really have a problem with using an outside burner but it is just one less thing I would have to buy right off the bat. I should probably just suck it up and do 5 gal batches. There could be worse dilemas to have. hah.
     
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  6. TreyAD

    TreyAD Initiate (0) Jun 16, 2016 Italy

    So lets assume that I am just going to start off with 5 gal batches. Would an 8 gallon mash tun be versitile enough? Could I make a 5 gallon batch of brew with a heavy grain bill in an 8 gal mash tun?

    I can imagine that the difference between a 3 gallon batch and a 5 gallon batch isnt much when it comes to the labor involved but one of my biggest concerns is the boil. I know that it is a lot easier to get 3 gallons to a rolling boil than it is for 5 gallons. If i do decide to do 5 gal then should I just go ahead and buy a turkey fryer setup so that I can boil outside?

    Also, you say that I should buy an 8 gallon or so primary. Would a 5 gallon secondary be fine since there is not much activity going on or should I heed the same advice for the secondary?

    Thanks for the feedback!
     
  7. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    My general recommendation is to purchase equipment for brewing 5 gallon batches. Over the past few years I have brewed several 3 gallon batches and they have turned out well.

    Cheers!
     
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  8. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    I ferment 3 gallon batches in my 7.9 gallon bucket and that works fine.

    Cheers!
     
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  9. invertalon

    invertalon Pooh-Bah (2,249) Jan 27, 2009 Ohio
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    I went right into AG and happy I did. It's not that difficult, just takes more time. A buddy at work who wanted to brew did one extract kit and just brewed his second batch, all grain! Of course I helped him prepare for it, but he said it wasn't bad and easier than his first batch.

    I would suggest buying a 10-gallon cooler (mash tun) and a 10-gal boil kettle. Even if just doing 3-4 gallon batches.

    Also, water is very important. Spend time looking into that, downloading Bru N' Water and learning how to use it. Water adjustment is so easy as long as you have a scale and have a basic idea what you are doing.
     
  10. TreyAD

    TreyAD Initiate (0) Jun 16, 2016 Italy

    Would you suggest worrying about my water composition on my first batch or should I wait until I have perfected the other tasks first (sanitation, organization and fermentation)?
     
  11. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    You should be aware of and take steps to ensure you achieve a proper mash pH. Tailoring mineral content to 'match' water to a given beer style is a lesser concern.

    Cheers!
     
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  12. invertalon

    invertalon Pooh-Bah (2,249) Jan 27, 2009 Ohio
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    At the very least, if using water with possible chlorine or chlorimates use campden tablets (1/4 tablet per 5-gallon). This will at least avoid any issue with that. I did my first few batches without doing anything with my water, except carbon filtering and never had any issue... But once I start tweaking my water for pH (which is easy with Bru N' Water, honestly don't even worry about a pH meter as once you have your base water in there, my actual pH is always right where the spreadsheet says it will be... will likely sell mine or stop taking readings soon, honestly), my beers improved quite a bit. The IPA's "pop" more, darker beers more malty and lagers crisp. It is 90%+ of your beer, so it IS important!

    I have noticed a very good change in my beers once I start working with the water. It adds maybe 5mins to my brew day and is all detailed out in Bru N' Water that I print out prior to brew day with my Beer Smith recipe/instruction summary sheet. Easy as can be! All I really use is gypsum, calcium chloride and phosphoric acid (and/or acid malt in the grain bill) most of the time. I have pickling lime but never really had to use it with my water.

    I have sent my buddy at work some "cliff note" instructions on brew day to help him not be intimidated and it seemed to work well. I will PM you that just in case it could help.
     
  13. TreyAD

    TreyAD Initiate (0) Jun 16, 2016 Italy

    I will definitely look into getting Bru N' Water; Sounds very useful. I would appreciate the 'cliff notes' as well. Anything helps! Unfortunately, I have a couple of months before I can actually start brewing because I am currently traveling a lot but I will be sure to document my first AG batch here on BA for any critiques/advice.
     
  14. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    An 8 gallon mash tun should be ideal for most 5 gallon mashes. You can also use it for 3 gallon mashes, although as mentioned, you will have to adjust your calculations for more rapid heat loss.

    A five gallon primary will definitely not work for 5 gallon batches (although it would be fine for 3 gallon batches). First of all, you need to make a batch size slightly larger than five gallons (to allow for loss due to trub). Secondly, once your beer ferments, there will be a significant amount of foam on the surface (often several inches). It would push its way through the fermentation lock and spill out of the fermenter.
     
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  15. invertalon

    invertalon Pooh-Bah (2,249) Jan 27, 2009 Ohio
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    Sent! And use this few months to research recipes/ingredients and of course the water stuff and everything.

    I also highly suggest reading this a few times... http://howtobrew.com/book/introduction

    I read that at least 4 times before I start brewing to let it soak in and learn the process best I could. By the time I did my first batch it was quite easy!
     
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  16. CurtFromHershey

    CurtFromHershey Initiate (0) Oct 4, 2012 Minnesota

    There is quite a bit involved in brewing, and I personally think an extract batch or two can be very useful. This way you don't need to worry about water chemistry while you're still figuring out how to best cool your wort, transfer to the fermenter, keep everything sanitary post-boil, etc. Extract + distilled water makes for a relatively easy first brewing experience that will likely result in a better product than an AG attempt with no prior brewing experience. Once you're comfortable with your basic processes, learning about mash pH, mineral profiles, gran absorption, etc. seems much less daunting.
     
  17. ssam

    ssam Pundit (997) Dec 2, 2008 California

    The main reason extract is good for beginners is because you can jump right in without much research, and still make good beer while you learn. You seem to have done extensive research. I personally think you will be fine jumping right in to AG.
     
  18. TreyAD

    TreyAD Initiate (0) Jun 16, 2016 Italy

    That was my reasoning behind my thought process. I have had months to read varying articles and texts on the subject so I believe that I am a little more informed than the average beginner; With that being said, mistakes are to be expected and I am not going into this overly ambitious. Thanks for the feedback!
     
  19. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    I have a 5-gallon batch setup. I sometimes brew smaller batches. If I think a batch requires multiple months of aging (such as a sours and meads), i.e., secondary fermentation, I will use a carboy filled to the neck to minimize headspace and oxidation. I have a couple 3 gallon glass carboys that I use for this purpose, and I have a few 1 gallon jugs I will use for even smaller batches. These are the only extra gear I have for small batch brewing, and I really only employ them for aging.

    For most pale ales, IPAs, stouts, browns, saisons, most basic beer styles, I do not do long term aging and I don't worry about headspace issues. These beers are fermented in buckets designed for 5 gallon batches, and I typically have them packaged after three weeks.

    The only other way I can think of that my 5 gallon equipment may be limited in terms of scaling down is that I recently started brewing with an electric system using a Blichmann boilcoil, which fits in the boil kettle and directly heats the wort. It must be completely immersed during the boil, so there is some minimum volume requirement for this system. I may not be able to make 2 gallon batches with it, but could probably do 3 gallon.
     
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  20. IDONTWANAPICKLE

    IDONTWANAPICKLE Initiate (0) Nov 17, 2015 New York

    I disagree with worrying about water for your first few batches of beer. Yes, it's important, but it is by far the easiest component of your brew day to really destroy your batch if you don't know what your doing.

    Chemistry can be pretty complex, and understanding how your modifications affect pH during mashing is pretty important. An easy way to avoid this to use spring water. There are plenty of seasoned brewers on this forum that have not touched their water profile and make fine beer.

    If spring water is not an option or prohibitively expensive (international), a general rule of thumb is that if the water tastes fine for drinking, more often than not it is fine for brewing. Avoid chlorinated water.

    OP is talking about his first ever batch of beer. Brewing isn't rocket science, but it's not an easy bake oven either. I think AG is fine out of the gate, but keep it simple to start.
     
    pweis909 likes this.
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