Kettle Sour Ales?

Talk Discussion in 'BeerAdvocate Talk' started by AirlessGOOSE, Jul 30, 2019.

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  1. hoptualBrew

    hoptualBrew Initiate (0) May 29, 2011 Florida

    My understanding:

    American Wild Ale - Spontaneously inncoulated mixed fermentation beer typically aged in oak for extended periods of time and sometimes blended and/or fruited before packaging.

    Berliner Weisse - Ale brewed with brewers yeast and Lactobacillus that produces a sour acidity and mild to moderate amount of funk. Can be soured quickly or aged. May be fruited prior to packaging.

    Kettle Sour Ale - Ale soured in the kettle before being boiled and fermented with brewers yeast. Produces clean acidity. Almost exclusively fruited and/or backsweetened prior to packaging.

    Gose - Basically a Berliner brewed with salt.


    Kettle sour is NOT Berliner. There is a HUGE difference between killing off Lactobacillus I’m boil kettle versus Lactobacillus usage in cellar. Kettle sours are one dimensional. Just acid. Lactobacillus unboiled, used in cellar, provides acidity and funk.
     
    #21 hoptualBrew, Aug 1, 2019
  2. Snowcrash000

    Snowcrash000 Grand High Pooh-Bah (6,041) Oct 4, 2017 Germany
    Mod Team Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    Lactobacillus produces no funk, just acidity. Funk comes mainly from fermenting with brettanomyces yeast, although certain bacteria can also contribute to it.

    Berliner Weiße brewed solely with lactobacillus actually isn't that different from a mundane Kettle Sour, which is also soured using lactobacillus, they are essentially the same thing. However, Berliner Weiße is traditionally brewed with brettanomyces as well, which is where things become interesting. They are also oak-aged sometimes, although these are harder to find.

    Gose is traditional brewed with salt and coriander and never fermented with brettanomyces.
     
    #22 Snowcrash000, Aug 2, 2019
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  3. hoptualBrew

    hoptualBrew Initiate (0) May 29, 2011 Florida

    http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Lactobacillus

    I would challenge your statement. See under section “Secondary Metabolites”.

    My previous statements were from past experience drinking a bunch of “Florida Weisse” when it was first a thing 5+ years ago. To my knowledge, these were not kettle soured back then and were acidic but also a bit “funky”. Not a Brett funk though! But a combination of trace elements mentioned in the article. Trace amounts of butyric acid, isovaleric acid, THP, etc... all came together, from my recollection, to taste a lot different than the clean kettle sour acidity of today’s sours.

    I also brewed a few like this, non-kettle soured and came away with same analysis. One is in the keg right now that was a Omega yeast Lacto blend that was co-pitched with US-05 and allowed to ride at 75F for the past two months. It’s sitting at 3.2 pH but also has a funky (not brett funk) complex to it that I do not find in kettle sours.
     
    #23 hoptualBrew, Aug 2, 2019
  4. hoptualBrew

    hoptualBrew Initiate (0) May 29, 2011 Florida

    #24 hoptualBrew, Aug 2, 2019
  5. Snowcrash000

    Snowcrash000 Grand High Pooh-Bah (6,041) Oct 4, 2017 Germany
    Mod Team Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    Given the content you linked, I guess we just have different ideas on what constitutes "funky" aromatics and flavors. It's quite common for Berliner Weiße to have estery flavor compounds, which does set them apart from mundane Kettle Sours if brewed to style, but I've yet to taste any "funky" elements in a Berliner Weiße fermented without brettanomyces.
     
    #25 Snowcrash000, Aug 2, 2019
    hoptualBrew likes this.
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