Labeling % Alpha Acid Content

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by pweis909, Sep 14, 2013.

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  1. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    The last few times I've ordered hops from MW Supplies, they sent me repackaged hops with no alpha acid content on the label - the labels just speficy hop variety. Should I feel peeved about this? I've got no alpha to enter into beersmith so I just have to go with anyone's guess? Or should I just accept that whatever % AA they might have reported would likely be inaccurate anyhow?
     
  2. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Just my opinions:

    “Should I feel peeved about this?” I personally would be peeved at this!

    “Or should I just accept that whatever % AA they might have reported would likely be inaccurate anyhow?” Hmmm. I have always been accepting that what HopUnion lists on the package for AA% is ‘accurate”. Do you know that what is labeled on hop packages by the hop vendors is inaccurate?

    Cheers!
     
  3. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2013 Minnesota


    If you recall I bought some El Dorado from MW that had AAU's listed, when yours didn't. It's my opinion that the 15.3 % they listed on mine was incorrect...and I believe it was a bit higher.

    Anyway, I'm not sure how accurate those numbers are...and perhaps that's why they've stopped labeling them. Those hops aren't packaged by MW, I don't believe...so I think it's really whoever is supplying them...
     
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  4. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    Somewhere in either a basic brewing broadcast or a brewing network broadcast, I feel like someone described how they sample for % AA and it left me with the impression that it wasn't very rigorous. It would be interesting to buy a bunch of 1 oz bags (that's how I get my hops) and assess variance around the mean.


    If enough of us are bothered by the lack of labeling, I may contact Midwest and ask what the deal is about this policy. The last time this happened, I emailed and asked what the % AA was on the hops they sent and the response I got was just broad ranges:

    "Subject: Order # 1622335 -- % Alpha Acid on Hops
    Thank you for contacting us.

    Hi Peter,

    El Dorado - Average 10.0-15.0%
    Styrian Goldings - 3.0-6.3
    German Tettnang - 3.0-6.0

    Please feel free to contact us if you have any additional questions."

    This, I could have guessed!
     
  5. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    “This, I could have guessed!” That is exactly right. The fact that MW does not have specific values for AA% (whether those values are ‘accurate” or not is really immaterial) is a travesty.

    I got a recent order from Northern Brewer. They typically provide hops via HopUnion but I received some Warrior hops in silver mylar packaging with a somewhat crude label (like something I could probably do with my home printer). Regardless of the somewhat crude label it did provide AA%.

    Not to derail this thread, but does anybody know why HopUnion documents Beta Acid percentage? Does the value have a ‘meaning’ for homebrewing?

    Cheers!
     
  6. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    This what the midwest hops came in, but the labels have lacked alpha acid. My understanding is that NB and MW are shipping out of the same Twin Cities location, so I expect that they will be doing the same thing.
     
  7. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2013 Minnesota


    They have, essentially, merged.
     
  8. HerbMeowing

    HerbMeowing Maven (1,295) Nov 10, 2010 Virginia
    Trader

    This level of customer service is IMO...reason enough to stop being a customer.
     
  9. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    I have decided to follow up with MW Supplies, via email, to find out what the deal is. I want to get a better understanding for why they have changed the info they provide to consumers, in this regard. I am not ready to stop being a customer. They have been really helpful to me over the past 7 years. However, their response will probably have an influence on my future relationship with them. I am willing to entertain that there might be a reasonable explanation for not providing this info to me, but I want to understand that explanation.
     
  10. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    I have been informed that MW is using some new software and having some technical issues that prevent putting % alpha acid on their labels. They hope that their IT person can address the issue. ME TOO!

    On the surface, it seems really inane, but I can imagine that they have some fancy database management program that integrates all kinds of aspects of the business (inventory, orders, label printing...) but has some minor wrinkles like this.

    Aside: I have some personal experience with this sort of problem. My employer's comprehensive academic data management system does lots of impressive things but every now and then the IT people tell us we can't do something that sounds like it should be quite simple and helpful. Limitations in the software end up making some decisions about how to run a college.
     
  11. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Can’t they just give an employee a magic marker and have them add the AA% to the labels?

    Cheers!
     
  12. leedorham

    leedorham Initiate (0) Apr 27, 2006 Washington

    No kidding. That email from pweis909 above is ridiculous, Providing a range that varies as much as 110% is unacceptable and basically renders the hops useless for any addition earlier than 0 minutes.

    Imagine you are brewing a Marzen and, depending on what the actual AA is, you could end up with as low as 20 IBUs or as high as 40 IBUs.
     
  13. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    You would think it might be that simple. But I fear that simple, common sense solutions are dinosaurs in the information age. (Speaking of dinosaurs, that comment makes me sound like one).
     
  14. billandsuz

    billandsuz Pooh-Bah (2,097) Sep 1, 2004 New York
    Pooh-Bah

    so the question for NB/MW (maybe North West Brewing from now on? Mid North?),

    all the other suppliers of hops can tell me the specific AA%, why exactly am I buying a mystery product from you?
    kind of ridiculous.
     
  15. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    “ …common sense solutions are dinosaurs in the information age”.

    This reminds me of some good old stories. During negotiations with the Soviets for a treaty (the START treaty in the early 80’s, I think) there was some interesting occurrences. One occurrence was that the Americans were noticing that their pencils were continually going missing. It turns out that the pencils made in the Soviet Union did not have erasers on them. The Soviets greatly coveted the US pencils since they had erasers on them so as soon as a pencil was left somewhere they would pocket it. During the negotiations the copy machine broke. The US negotiators were in a panic since copies of proposals were needed as part of the negotiation process. The Soviets calmly pulled out carbon paper from their briefcases and the negotiations continued.

    Cheers!
     
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  16. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    Here is the content of their most recent communication:

    "I am very sorry. There is a technical restriction with our labeling system that is preventing the printing from our hops packaging. We are enlisting the help of IT and hope to have the changes made soon.
    Customer Service doesn't have easy access to the AA%, but we can try to get them from the bulk boxes. Let us know which percentages you need. It might take us a couple of days."

    This was in response to the following email:

    "Comment: I have a bit of a complaint.

    My last two orders (# 1648552 and # 1622335 ) both contained 1-oz packages of several hops and in all 5 varieties, no information was listed about alpha acid content. All of these hops came in silver mylar bags with a computer printed label. In ALL prior dealings with Midwest and ALL dealings with other homebrew suppliers, hops have arrived with an alpha acid content on the label.

    In the instance of # 1622335 , I contacted Midwest to find out what the % alpha acid was on the hop and the reply contained a standard range quote (e.g., 3-6%, 10-15%) that I might have found anywhere on the internet.

    Can you help me understand this new practice at Midwest? Is there a good reason why you are no longer specifying % alpha acid?

    Sorry if I'm coming off like a whiner, but I am interested in why this is happening and how I should adjust my brewing to what appears to be greater uncertainty about hops."


    From this, I am beginning to infer that that Midwest Supplies has grown at the expense of good customer service practice. On the one hand, they have been polite and reasonably prompt in addressing my concerns. However, why would you run your business in a way that does not give customer service easy access to the sort of information the customer might need? Why would it take a couple of days? And why doesn't someone get a Sharpie marker!
     
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  17. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    As you can see from the post above where I quote my email and their response, I did essentially ask the question, and the answer I seem to be getting is "due to technical difficulty."
     
  18. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    This is nuts. You gave them the order numbers.

    I had a similar (but shorter) exchange, in which I wasn't given AA% ranges, but rather a a single 'estimated AA%' for each hop, which happened to be right about in the middle of the published ranges. Fail.
     
  19. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    FWIW, I ultimatey ended up (re)ordering my hops, this time from Northern Brewer (since Midwest couldn't tell me the AA% for sure, and this is for a friend's Weeding Beer test batch). They arrived today in Hop Union nitrogen flushed packaging, with the usual AA markings. So at least at this point, not everything is being fulfilled from the same stock (between Midwest and Northern Brewer).
     
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  20. MLucky

    MLucky Initiate (0) Jul 31, 2010 California

    "Customer Service doesn't have easy access to the AA%, but we can try to get them from the bulk boxes. Let us know which percentages you need. It might take us a couple of days"

    This is the point at which I would decide not to do business with them any more. You included the order numbers. They know what they sold you, and they shouldn't be asking. They should be making a call to either their warehouse or their wholesaler to get you the numbers, not telling you to wait a few more days.

    As an aside: One of my pet peeves has been the inconsistent weights of supposedly "one ounce" or "two ounce" packages of hops. I was brewing the other day, and I weighed the "two ounce" package of simcoe I had on hand. It weighed 1.6 ounces, package included! This is not the first time this has happened, but this was probably the largest discrepancy I've come across. Most of the time, it's more like an "ounce" of hops that turns out to be 26 grams or some such. Pisses me off.
     
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