Labeling % Alpha Acid Content

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by pweis909, Sep 14, 2013.

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  1. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    Ironically, for the first of the two purchases I cited above, I used a discount code that they sent me in order to attract me back to their business. I have made several dozen purchases from them over the last 8 years, but my ordering slowed. The reason my ordering slowed was because I had several chances to be in Minneapolis in the last few years and I started buying supplies in person, in their brick-and-mortar store. Consequently, they must have thought they lost me as a customer and needed to attract me back. Turns out, they might have done more harm than good. I won't be brewing for a while, but next time I place a mail order, I'll probably shop around.
     
    #21 pweis909, Sep 19, 2013
  2. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Below is a beermail that I sent Peter (pweis909):

    Peter, I just received a big order from Northern Brewer. In that orders I had a lot of hops (Galaxy, Hallertauer, Styrian Goldings, Northern Brewer, ….) and two hop varieties came in Mylar packaging vs. Hopunion packaging: German Magnum and Centennial. Neither of those two had AA% on them. I had to call Northern Brewer and in a period of a minute they provided the information I needed. I was informed that this is a ‘glitch’ with their software (same as Midwest it appears). I was told that it would be fixed in the future.

    I asked why this hops weren’t Hopunion hops. Steve told me that Northern Brewer found another hop vendor with cheaper prices and that Northern Brewer is repackaging the hops. I asked if the mylar packages are nitrogen flushed and the answer was no. I then asked how long these hops would last since they aren’t nitrogen flushed. Steve said: years if stored in the freezer. I am not happy that these packages are not nitrogen flushed and I do not know whether years is an ‘accurate’ storage timeframe. I will be using these mylar packaged hops real soon!

    Cheers!

    Jack
     
    #22 JackHorzempa, Sep 20, 2013
  3. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    I asked Jack to repost this conversation because I am concerned about the lack of nitrogen flushing and vacuum packing in these products. I understand the general rule that keeping things cold slows down oxygenation by a factor of ~2 for every 10 degrees (I've gotten some mileage out this principle in my own non-brewing science endeavors), but I feel like corners are being cut. When I learned that MW and NB were no longer truly competing, I had this fear that this could negatively impact consumers. Are we seeing this now in multiple different ways? Both companies end up using a lame computer printing program that does not let them put % AA on the hops, no customer service people with a SHARPIE MARKER to correct the problem, and now putting hops in oxygen barrier packages without removing the oxygen from the packaging? Am I wrong about this?
     
    #23 pweis909, Sep 20, 2013
  4. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Well, I won't be buying hops from anyone who doesn't nitrogen flush or vacuum seal right after drying. The further scary part about these unflushed/unvacuumed foil packs is that they are packaging them as they go along to meet demand... So...packaging from bulk hops stored how?
     
    #24 VikeMan, Sep 20, 2013
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  5. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Initiate (0) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    Beta acids...big heap controversial, but why some insist on a uber fresh IPA:rolling_eyes:
     
    #25 GreenKrusty101, Sep 20, 2013
  6. billandsuz

    billandsuz Pooh-Bah (2,097) Sep 1, 2004 New York
    Pooh-Bah

    well, wew know this is not true. years? and still others go through the trouble of packaging with inert gas. there are plenty of studies that detail the degradation of hops over time under different storage conditions. vacuum sealed and sub zero storage is ideal, but even under those conditions hops degrade. certain hops (Cascade) fall apart fairly quickly. so yes, hops may last "years if stored in the freezer", but so will just about any other food. that does not make it OK.

    alot of BS detectors are blinking at this moment.
    Cheers.
     
    #26 billandsuz, Sep 20, 2013
  7. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Yeah, that I why I previously stated: "I am not happy that these packages are not nitrogen flushed and I do not know whether years is an ‘accurate’ storage timeframe. I will be using these mylar packaged hops real soon!"

    Cheers!
     
    #27 JackHorzempa, Sep 20, 2013
  8. TNGabe

    TNGabe Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2012 Tennessee

    I don't think the actual AA level is very important. All it tells you is what the level was when tested, which is probably higher than what it is by them you use them. Mailing hops can't be good for them, nitro flushed or otherwsie. Then there's how we store them. If you can't nitro flush and vac pack at home, obviously there's some more loss. Keeping them in a frost free freezer is worse than the fridge according to For the Love of Hops, so unless you have a seperate deep freezer there goes some more AA. Then there's utilization. Anyone know what they're actual utilization is? Doubtful. Not that any of this excuses a major retailer not having expected information. Just food for thought.
     
    #28 TNGabe, Sep 20, 2013
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  9. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Almost everything you said would support this statement: "Alpha Acid content loss is inevitable and hard to estimate." But I don't think is supports "Actual AA level is not very important." To paraphrase something a BA (Barfdiggs maybe?) once said, "Measure what you can, and estimate the rest."
     
    #29 VikeMan, Sep 20, 2013
    GreenKrusty101 likes this.
  10. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    I realize these issues you cite that lead to uncertainty about hop alpha acids. However, a responsible retailer ought to be able to tell me (1) what the % alpha was when it was measured and (2) that they have taken steps to minimize degradation while the hops were in their possession. MW/NB is not doing (1) consistently and has now raised doubts about (2).
     
    #30 pweis909, Sep 20, 2013
  11. TNGabe

    TNGabe Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2012 Tennessee

    Not disagreeing with point (1). Even said so in my post. :slight_smile:

     
    #31 TNGabe, Sep 20, 2013
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