Lager Attenuation

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by Yalc, Nov 27, 2018.

  1. Yalc

    Yalc Initiate (114) Nov 5, 2011 Florida

    Just pulled a sample of my mostly Munich lager after 15 days in fermentor and it has only gone down to 1.016 from 1.056 or 70% attenuation.
    Used 1 pk rehydrated S-189 at 55 for 5 days them free rise to 65F.
    Thing is it tastes great, clean & malty.
    The question is could it be better a bit drier? This is my first with this yeast. Searching the webs I see attenuation from 75-85%. Those who have used this yeast...can I expect any more after 15 days? Or just carb it and enjoy?
    92% Munich
    5.7% Aromatic
    2.3% Blackprinz
     
  2. VikeMan

    VikeMan Meyvn (1,469) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania

    I don't have any experience or data on S-189, but that grain bill is not particularly fermentable. So maybe you are at/close to what you can expect.
     
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  3. invertalon

    invertalon Devotee (433) Jan 27, 2009 Ohio

    I'd say it's done, looking at the grain bill. What Munich did you use? Light or Dark?

    In cases like this where there is no easily fermentable sugars (pils malt), attenuation will go down unless you step mash and such.
     
  4. Yalc

    Yalc Initiate (114) Nov 5, 2011 Florida

    That makes sense, I also have never used such a high % of Munich. it was light Munich. No steps, single infusion.
     
  5. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Aspirant (204) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    I just used S-189 for the first time recently. It was completely stuck at about 1.020 for 3 weeks. No amount of swirling or warming it up did anything to move it. Then I added dry hops. Suddenly it woke up again and finished at 1.013 (from 1.062).

    So I do think it's a fussy yeast. Add dry hops, or yeast energizer, and hope for the best.
     
  6. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Crusader (730) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    Probably underpitched @ 1 sachet
     
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  7. Yalc

    Yalc Initiate (114) Nov 5, 2011 Florida

    Forgot to mention it is a 2.5 gal batch.
     
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  8. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Aspirant (204) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    Definitely fine then.
     
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  9. premierpro

    premierpro Aspirant (239) Mar 21, 2009 Michigan

    I would point at the grain bill. I use S-189 a lot and never have had problems. I brew different lagers all the time from around 1.050 - 1.065 OG. I pitch a single pack without re-hydration. They all finish out. Next time use some Pils malt That will help out. Take care!
     
  10. telejunkie

    telejunkie Aspirant (238) Sep 14, 2007 Vermont

    :thinking_face: I'll nitpick here...while agree that Pils would provide a more fermentable wort when done side by side with the same mash protocol as most Munich malts, not sure if "easily fermentable sugars" is the right term here. Munich should provide more non-fermentable Maillard products, but still should provide a fairly similar proportion of easily fermentables like glucose and maltose. A German Munich like Weyermann's Munich I should be almost as fermentable as their Pils...couple points maybe but it's not like the wort would be loaded with maltotriose when compared.
     
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  11. VikeMan

    VikeMan Meyvn (1,469) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania

    FWIW, Greg Doss' study (circa 2012) found Munich Malt to be slightly less fermentable than Pils. But there's more to @Yalc's grain bill than the Munich. It also contained healthy portions of Aromatic and Blackprinz, which would be even less and lesser fermentable, respectively.
     
  12. Prep8611

    Prep8611 Aspirant (250) Aug 22, 2014 New Jersey

    I like s-189 and I think this is finished based on your grain bill and nothing to do with your yeast.
     
  13. Yalc

    Yalc Initiate (114) Nov 5, 2011 Florida

    Thanks everyone, I'm going with the consensus and am crashing and kegging!
     
  14. InVinoVeritas

    InVinoVeritas Devotee (414) Apr 16, 2012 Wisconsin

    Even at 2.5 gal batch, one pack is under pitched. By my calculations, you need closer to two packs, 200B cells vs. one pack 110B cells. I'm not disagreeing with the general consensus regarding grain bill being the main factor of higher than anticipated FG. Rather bringing pitch rate up for future consideration - lagers take a shit ton of yeast!
     
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  15. TheBeerery

    TheBeerery Initiate (84) May 2, 2016 Minnesota

    2.5ml/mil for me. However, since most homebrewers treat lagers like ales (ferment warmer, raise temps, etc) they can use pitch rates much less. But, this is exactly why 99% of homebrewed lagers taste like ales, so...
     
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  16. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,712) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Premium

    Do you have a reference for a sachet of S-189 containing 110 billion cells?

    Cheers!
     
  17. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Aspirant (204) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    I've heard from random sources on the interwebs that I deem credible that a typical dry yeast pack contains 100-200 billion cells. Very lengthy discussion topic, filter the chaff yourself (and yes it's largely chaff):

    https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=27438.0
     
  18. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,712) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Premium

    According to Brad Smith:

    “Dry yeast has approximately 18 billion cells per gram of yeast. Dry yeast packets typically come in two sizes. The 5 gram (smaller) packets have approximately 90 billion cells, which is comparable to a recently purchased liquid yeast vial or large smack pack (each at 100 billion cells). The larger 11.5 gram dry yeast packets have approximately 207 billion cells,…”

    http://beersmith.com/blog/2014/04/03/dry-yeast-in-home-brewed-beer/

    Cheers!
     
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  19. telejunkie

    telejunkie Aspirant (238) Sep 14, 2007 Vermont

    Little late getting back to this one...but nobody actually quoted the sources. Fermentis states at least 6 billion viable cells per gram or at least 70 billion per sachet. Lallemand states at least 5 billion viable cells per gram or 55 billion per sachet.

    Do we have credible sources that have done cell counts on approximate viable cells in sachets that are double to quadruple the stated counts from the manufacturers? I know I've been dinged in my papers for stating 100-200 billion estimates . . .
     
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  20. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Aspirant (204) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    Found a reference. I'll look for more.

    I apparently heard Jamil say on the following podcast at about the 59-minute mark that the standard 11-gram dry yeast packets contain about 225% as much yeast as a standard vial of liquid yeast. I mean, he would know, right? He wrote the book on Yeast.

    http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/membersarchive/bws_2016_07_05_diacetyldryyeastQs.mp3

    https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=27438.msg358328#msg358328

    Note: Jamil didn't state his assumptions, so we can only assume what he assumed. In context I think it was pretty clear what he was saying -- there's generally a lot more viable yeast in a dry pack that what meets the eye. Not to mention, dry packs remain mostly viable for YEARS in the fridge instead of just 8-10 months like liquid yeast does.
     
  21. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,712) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Premium

    Dave,

    There was a Q&A with Dr. Clayton Cone (of Lallemand at that time) a number of years ago in another homebrewing forum where he made mention of 20 billion yeast cells per gram.

    Below is a post by Denny Conn discussing this topic. Apparently he has done some cell counting.

    “From Jamil at mrmalty.com...Most dry yeast has an average cell density of 20 billion cells per gram. You would need about 9.5 grams of dry yeast if you were pitching into 5.5 gallons of 1.048 wort to get the proper cell counts. (Recently there have been other numbers mentioned for cells/gram of dry yeast and folks have asked me why I believe there are 20 billion cells. I've actually done cell counts on dry yeast and they're always 20 billion per gram +/- less than a billion. Dr. Clayton Cone has also stated that there are 20 billion per gram, and other folks I trust tell me that 20 billion is correct. Until I see something different, practical experience tells me this number is correct.) For dry yeasts, just do a proper rehydration in tap water, do not do a starter.”

    https://brews-bros.com/topic/46774-whats-the-number-of-yeast-cells-in-a-typical-dry-yeast-pack/

    Do you have any contact information for folks at dry yeast manufacturers? Maybe for Dr. Tobias Fischborn of Lallemand? Perhaps you could contact them to confirm the above?

    Cheers!
     
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  22. TheBeerery

    TheBeerery Initiate (84) May 2, 2016 Minnesota

    Just to clarify the above. Jamil has done counting... Not Denny, I don't think that falls into cheap and easy :wink:
     
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  23. wasatchback

    wasatchback Aspirant (270) Jan 12, 2014 Utah

    I thought Kai did some cell counts with dry yeast and the numbers were all over the place. I think you can find it somewhere online. I think T-58 was the highest at 18 and S04 was the lowest, around 5 or so.
     
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  24. TheBeerery

    TheBeerery Initiate (84) May 2, 2016 Minnesota

    I have a lab here, with scope and everything. I scope all my yeast before I pitch. I would count for some more numbers but I don't have dry yeast, nor do I use it or believe in it!
     
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  25. telejunkie

    telejunkie Aspirant (238) Sep 14, 2007 Vermont

    When has that ever stopped science!? :wink:

    I wouldn't mind digging in further...no time at the present, but things should lighten up by Christmas time and will try to get some answers from manufacturers. Could be a fun little piece to run as well in the next issue. Would gladly quote any numbers you come up with as well if you are able to sit down and dig in with your scope.
     
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  26. premierpro

    premierpro Aspirant (239) Mar 21, 2009 Michigan

    How do you feel about Bigfoot?
     
  27. TheBeerery

    TheBeerery Initiate (84) May 2, 2016 Minnesota

    Don’t believe in it.
     
  28. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Crusader (730) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

  29. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,712) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Premium

    The folks of Great Divide seem to believe!

    [​IMG]
     
  30. riptorn

    riptorn Initiate (95) Apr 26, 2018 North Carolina
    Trader

    Non-believers should probably shy away from this outfit