Late hopping method

One beer is totally in-your-face hoppy, the other is not. The difference was not at all subtle. I didn't expect it to be. That was the plan, and the technique delivered. There's no need for a side by side because they were, predictably, not even close - again, that's the whole point of the technique. If you triple the sugar in your lemonade, you wouldn't need to do a side by side to know that it will be much sweeter.
It's important no note that I'm referring specifically to the hop bursting technique, not simply to a hop schedule that includes a heavy dose of late hops.

 

Hop bursted beers, while having a novel flavor profile, will never approach the bitterness of a traditionally bittered beer IMHO.

 

The goal is to maximize the hop flavor/aroma without changing IBU. I'm not sure why you believe you can't achieve the same bitterness. In this context, tripling the flavor/aroma hops will increase the hop flavor in much the same way that tripling the sugar in lemonade will affect the perception of sweetness. It's not a subtle difference that needs to be carefully considered. It's also not a question of which is better, since the result is a different beer (which is better, an American Wheat or a Porter? - it's that sort of a question)

 

For one thing the IBU method is not perfect. It's a rough guideline. I'm sure that at as you more up and down the time scale it becomes more and less efficient. And as your calculated IBU's increase it becomes more of a lie. Also you get bitterness from things other than hop oils. As you add in hops you get bitterness (Polyphenols/tannins) just from the organic matter.

The selection of when to add hops isn't just a bitterness vs. flavor/aroma question. The different times determine things like stability and what flavor compounds are made. Sure a 15 minute addition will be more bitter and a 5 minute less. And a 5 minute addition will have more flavor/aroma and a 15 minute less. But the bitterness and flavor/aroma characteristics will differ in more ways than one might think. The molecules that are made have been identified and will make different flavors.

 

The emphasis is on flavor/aroma. Ballpark bitterness is good enough for this application. Is early bitterness better than late? I don't know. Frankly, I don't care. It works.

 

You're welcome. That's why we're here. I suspect I ask more questions than I answer.
The most significant take away from this discussion is that it's not about the benefits of one technique over the other. They produce very different results. One yields an intensely hoppy flavor and aroma, the other does not. We're not dealing with nuances. To compare the results of these two hopping techniques looking for a benefit of one over the other is as pointless as trying to decide which is better - blue or the number 2. They're just different.

 

I'd say that the concepts are clear, it's the application that everyone needs to adapt to their own system. There are trade off's for each approach for bittering. There is no panacea approach. FWIW I don't believe that Jamil (Mr. Malty) advocates pure hop-bursting.

http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/484 , you might want to listen to that podcast. Matt Brynildson from Firestone Walker explains his approach for his hop forward beers. He touches on what some of the different hop addition times will do. I've used his approach and have been happy.

If you join the AHA there is also a great audio on hop additions scheduling by Colin Kaminski. He gos into the science a bit more. I think that it's copyrighted material so I'm not too sure what I can share. But he explains a few things like what addition will make the most stable bittering molecule, which will accentuate polyphenols and some of the IBU calculation myths.

 

90 minutes at 154F is pretty long. What are you shooting for with this? I'm worried that your beer will be too thin.

 

If you're happy then don't worry. And the batch size isn't important for mash time.

At 154F temp your starches should be converted way before 90 minutes. So then the dextrins are what will be further reduced. I've asked a few times as to what constiutes conversion. Or when are the amylose molecules and amylopectin molecules longer present and when they are complex sugars. I had found a BYO article that seems to agree that there is no simple answer. I might look for it again, it explains my question better.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/The_Theory_of_Mashing

At 154F Beta amylase will still be working, just not as fast. If anything the longer mash will help the Beta amylase sense it's less effective. And please no one take this the wrong way, but typically there is a big variance in the temps of a home brewers my tun. I recirculate and have a window that I work in.

Again, if you're happy I'm not trying to change what you're doing. Just providing this for reference.