1. Looking to trade some beers? Check out How to Get Started with Beer Trading.
Dismiss Notice
We're celebrating 10 years of BeerAdvocate magazine with $10 print subscriptions for US residents.

Subscribe now!

Let's talk about trade winning and threadsh******.

Discussion in 'Beer Trading Talk' started by whiskey, Mar 18, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. roon

    roon Mar 1, 2013 Minnesota
    Beer Trader

    My answer was not bullshit. My answer was simple economics. A trade would not happen if it was not mutually beneficial...so if a 4 pack of HT trades for a BA Dark Lord one must assume that both parties felt the trade was mutually beneficial and therefore a great trade.

    You seem to think that you know whats best for people in the world of beer trading. You hold your opinion in high regard and feel that you are able to determine value for other people better than they can for themselves. I tend to disagree and feel that leaving people to make decisions about what is best for them is the better approach.
  2. whiskey

    whiskey Feb 25, 2012 California
    Beer Trader

    I can see it now.

    roon: "Hey buddy, just sold my collectible thimble for $50!"

    buddy: "yeah, that collectible thimble has recently sold elswhere for over $1,000. I didn't want to say anything because simple economics tells me that since you were happy with that $50 there was no need for me to educate you in the manner."

    roon: "Really!? Huh, well I'm happy with $50, can I buy you a beer buddy?"

    Good grief. It's really a fucking weird concept that you(and obviously others) have. Like this weird way of thinking helping someone is bad, and letting the predators do their thing just because the prey doesn't know any better. So bizarre.
    Pahn, JulianB and domtronzero like this.
  3. FanClub

    FanClub Nov 2, 2012 Indiana

    Good grief is right, your not talking about trading, your talking about monetizing value, and using silly comparisons of non perishable goods. Assuming you couldn't sell either would your rather have a $20 stout or a $500 thimble? What your telling people is you shouldn't trade your beer for the beer you want but the one that is most in line with your beers value...which is of course nonsense since the point of beer is to consume and enjoy
  4. whiskey

    whiskey Feb 25, 2012 California
    Beer Trader

    It is consumable. But it costs money and it's traded and values are perceived and different beers cost different dollar amounts no matter how much you hate that. It has nothing to do with what I like or what I think it should valued at.

    I'm not comparing beer to other consumable things, but they are unnecessary. I don't think comparing two uneccessary things that lack intrinsic value and are "collectable" is sillyjust because one is consumable.

    And lately, I've been losing on $4$ in my trades and I've been doing blind trades without any expectation of the cost of what I'm getting in comparison to what I'm sending.

    But that doesn't change the fact that how roon answered my silly question is disturbing to me. As hard as he may be trying to "let the man trade his beer", I don't trust him as far as I could throw him...just from that answer.
  5. stupac2

    stupac2 Feb 22, 2011 California
    Beer Trader

    People disagree with this? I mean, I guess this thread is advertisement that they do, but it's kind of a nonsense position.
    JulianB, MordorMongo and whiskey like this.
  6. whiskey

    whiskey Feb 25, 2012 California
    Beer Trader

    I especially like the bold parts. I couldn't have put it better. The above just rings true with common sense and helping a fellow BA out.
    MordorMongo likes this.
  7. FanClub

    FanClub Nov 2, 2012 Indiana

    The postion would make sense if people weren't constantly angry about others trying to maximize value and trade up etc. The current community cultivates new traders into thinking about value, value, value, then gets pissed at them when they post "what's my beer worth" thread and trys to maximize said value. They will learn how to monetize their beer soon enough, why not let them have those few ignorant months where they try new beer for fun, instead of for it's value and collect-ability?
    FTowne and Brew33 like this.
  8. whiskey

    whiskey Feb 25, 2012 California
    Beer Trader

    It's not just about new people. That's the point, it's people that have been here for years that know better that makes it appear to be somewhat predatory.
  9. OakedCanuck

    OakedCanuck Jun 23, 2009 Washington

    When I first started out I traded a Bourbon County Vanilla for a Dark Lord.

    I really wish I had a friend to give me a 'V8-commercial-smack-on-the-head' before I agreed to it. Oh well, I should be done with therapy in a few months (I actually drank the DL, whelp).
  10. stupac2

    stupac2 Feb 22, 2011 California
    Beer Trader

    There's a difference between maximizing value and getting fair value.

    Also, people don't generally get angry when someone posts something like that out of genuine ignorance. See the recent thread by the guy with the 'loons.
    whiskey likes this.
  11. FanClub

    FanClub Nov 2, 2012 Indiana

    poorly chosen word aside, the community teaches new traders what the should be trading for based on collective community value and not what the new trader necessarily wants based on his taste and experience. and if someone has their own way of assigning value they get lambasted.
  12. jaIsPoAn

    jaIsPoAn Aug 1, 2012 New York

    That sounds perfectly fine to me
  13. stupac2

    stupac2 Feb 22, 2011 California
    Beer Trader

    I really don't understand how posting "you could get more for that" is "getting lambasted", but whatever. People only get lambasted when they ask for too much, not too little. I really don't understand where you're coming from here.
  14. tommyz

    tommyz May 28, 2007 Michigan
    Beer Trader

    If I could post a clapping .gif I really, really would
  15. immobilisme

    immobilisme Nov 8, 2005 Illinois

    Are you saying, in a roundabout way, that AleWatcher is a threadshitter?
  16. jaIsPoAn

    jaIsPoAn Aug 1, 2012 New York

    Why did you want the dl? Did you already have the vanilla? There both even in price. Both got what the wanted. Its just beer
  17. FanClub

    FanClub Nov 2, 2012 Indiana

    right, what's the difference?

    Here is what most on BA saeem to believe:
    1.) There is a beer community on BA
    2.) As a community we have agreed to value beer in such a way
    3.) If you value beer in a way different from the community you are either:
    An ignorant newb and need to be protected. (giving up to much value)​
    Ahole greedy 2012er and need to be lynched (asking for too much value)​

    I find this unfortunate, It emphasizes beer value instead of a beer journey. It teaches new traders to constantly think about value. You say your just giving them helpful tips, and they don't have to listen. But your conditioning them, if you don't trade they way we do you can't be part of the community.
    Brew33 likes this.
  18. OakedCanuck

    OakedCanuck Jun 23, 2009 Washington

    I was trying to make a joke and lighten things up around here. But oh I forgot some people take this stuff way too seriously. It's serious business. Seriously. :rolleyes:
    MordorMongo likes this.
  19. stupac2

    stupac2 Feb 22, 2011 California
    Beer Trader

    My god, just because they're things in the different direction doesn't mean they're the same! That's so fallacious I don't even think it has a name.

    Just look above at someone who gave up more than he needed to get a beer. Obviously he didn't die of cancer or anything, but he regrets it now and wishes someone had told him. That's the thing, after being informed that someone could get more with their bottle, now they are making an informed choice as to whether to give it up or not. If someone wants to make an informed choice to ask for too little, then they're generally applauded on BA. People who aren't informed can't make optimal decisions for themselves, so there's a moral duty to inform them. And this is general, foundational stuff that people not on BA agree on. The world is better when everyone is making informed decisions that they won't come to regret later. Why do you disagree with that?
    beerific and OakedCanuck like this.
  20. jaIsPoAn

    jaIsPoAn Aug 1, 2012 New York

    Its crazy what people think
  21. Pahn

    Pahn Dec 2, 2009 New York
    Beer Trader

    tired of reading through, but whiskey and mordormongo are right.

    if any of you are on the opposite side and are also reasonable people, it's probably because you (rightly) believe that there's no objective value, and beer really is just worth what you're willing to let it go for. however, if you think that's a reason to never educate people and help them be aware that they can get other beers they want (beers they won't be able to get with anything else any time soon), you're just being stubborn / stupid / etc.
  22. roon

    roon Mar 1, 2013 Minnesota
    Beer Trader

    What makes you think they are predators and prey? Why can't they just be people trading things? You have the "I need to win this trade" mentality. Its not about winning, its about mutually beneficial exchange...and the only 2 parties that can determine what that is are the involved parties. Your opinion doesn't matter, neither does what you perceive a beer to be valued at matter if you are not involved in the exchange.
  23. Pahn

    Pahn Dec 2, 2009 New York
    Beer Trader

    one of the parties involved would have a different opinion if they had more information. being a friend to them would be giving them that information.

    what is difficult about this for you?
  24. stupac2

    stupac2 Feb 22, 2011 California
    Beer Trader

    ITT: Used car salesman defend their business practices.
  25. whiskey

    whiskey Feb 25, 2012 California
    Beer Trader

    Where did I ever give the impression that I need to win jack shit? This whole topic is about how I believe we should help others, not about me trying to win anything. You're a piece of work.
  26. roon

    roon Mar 1, 2013 Minnesota
    Beer Trader

    I think the thing people have the hardest time with is understanding that value is subjective to the individual. People would rather take their opinion and apply it to everyone. "Hey, you could get more for that!"....what if someone doesn't want more for that? What if they want what they are trading for?

    It's not about wanting people to learn through the school of hard knocks...or wanting to trade an IPA for anything. Its about understanding that not everyone is trying to get a Black Tuesday...some people are just trying to get beer's that they can't get at home.

    Not trusting me because I hold a different opinion than you? LOL.
  27. roon

    roon Mar 1, 2013 Minnesota
    Beer Trader

    LOL - I don't even participate in the ISO/FT forum and don't plan to. BIF's are where it is at. Used car salesman? LOL.
  28. roon

    roon Mar 1, 2013 Minnesota
    Beer Trader

    You think beer has an intrinsic value outside of what someone paid for it. You think that value can lead to someone "losing" or "winning" based on the value they get back. You do have that mentality...it is a pre-req for holding the opinion that you do.

    The other position is that beer has the value that the people trading place on it. There is no intrinsic value....no "set price" for the beer other than the dollar's paid for it. That is the position I take, I leave it up to the parties involved to determine its value.
  29. roon

    roon Mar 1, 2013 Minnesota
    Beer Trader

    How do you know they would feel differently? Because you would? Your opinion is irrelevant...we have been over this.
  30. Pahn

    Pahn Dec 2, 2009 New York
    Beer Trader

    you just don't want to be wrong. people have said outright that they wished they knew more after the fact. you don't understand this?

    of course you don't. "we've" been over this, ie it's been explained to you and you ignored it. hopefully you're enough of a joke to actually put this stuff into practice to avoid being wrong. i like performance piece jokes like that. well, being aware of them i guess. i wouldn't like it if i actually knew you.
  31. roon

    roon Mar 1, 2013 Minnesota
    Beer Trader

    Its not about not wanting to be wrong lol. I just don't presume to know what people want. If they want my opinion they can ask for it. Otherwise....keep your nose on your own face. I guess it's just me though eh?
    JackCrow likes this.
  32. wingedeel

    wingedeel Nov 17, 2005 Indiana
    Beer Trader

    There sure are a lot of people on this site lately with the handle "ignored member".
  33. stxSS07

    stxSS07 Nov 23, 2010 Illinois

    Is no one going to tell AleWatcher that the case of the tub-shitter has been solved?
    MordorMongo likes this.
  34. ForkAndSpoonOp

    ForkAndSpoonOp May 4, 2011 Pennsylvania

    ISO: Lamborghini Aventador FT: '95 Ford Windstar

    The Windstar seats more people than the Lambo, and gets far better gas mileage. Some people may even like the styling more. Plus, the Windstar isn't being made anymore, and it's from the first vintage. Seems fair to me.
    ThreeFishes, pk18 and CarolinaKevin like this.
  35. sandiego67

    sandiego67 Feb 25, 2008 California

    Head threadshitter points out the the correct phrase is, "I couldn't care less". Carry on.
  36. MarshalHunahpu

    MarshalHunahpu Mar 10, 2013 Florida

    whaa? :confused:
  37. MarshalHunahpu

    MarshalHunahpu Mar 10, 2013 Florida

    & its called negotiation. One doesn't have to label the exact trade in the title because each trader will obviously get as much from the other as they can until a happy medium is reached. The traders will negotiate until both of them are happy with the offer.

    Post what you have.
    Post what you want.
    Expand if needed.

    Class dismissed,

  38. lucas1801

    lucas1801 Apr 5, 2012 Massachusetts

    Post what you want to trade
    Post what you want in return
    Make the damn trade, if you decide to expand from there fine. If someone offers your ISO take it, or if you think it isn't enough post a different ISO. It isn't hard at all.
  39. RedBeeron

    RedBeeron Jul 7, 2012 California
    Beer Trader

    First and foremost, as a guy that trades infrequently and considers himself a novice trader, I want to state very clearly that I'm not disagreeing with you and instead had some thoughts/observations I wanted to expound upon based on the sections in bold. I'm giving this disclaimer because I tend to ramble as I work my way towards whatever point I originally had nebulously formed and wanted to express.

    I'm no Levitation, so I dont know how many of the multitudes/most outspoken people are the same ones that threadshit on a "Beer X: Whats it going to take?" or "Whats the trade value of X", but those threads are a natural extension of the argument "if they want help they will ask". Anyone thats been around for a short period of time is going to see a lot of the same beers mentioned in the ISO:FT boards and will naturally be curious. Obviously, if all these people are 'ISO: Whatever The Beer of the Day/Week' is these beers have to be awesome, right? Or worse, for someone that sees the same beers coming up frequently enough that you recognize them over a couple weeks/months, obviously these beers have to be delicious and you absolutely MUST tick them.

    When I first joined this site on July 6th 2012 (threashit away, fellas!), it was actually easier for me to figure out if a posted trade was lopsided as I would see a sufficient amount of comments all amounting to either "you're probably going to have to add on" or "bm sent" depending on which way it swung (little to the left, in my case). Sure people could get a little overzealous in how they responded, but this is the Internet and a website for people enjoying a hobby that should be limited to those 21+. Hell, even the trolls are pretty tame.

    Between the removal of comments and the continued rise in popularity of Craft, new traders had no real way of figuring out whether or not they could get their hands on these beers that the community was hyping. Not in any overt way, but just in the nature of the ISO:FT boards. When huna comes out, people that have it are going to FT it and people that want are going to ISO. This will obviously happen with greatest frequency around the release date, which puts the beer on people's radar. New traders, wanting to try these beers, started posting unrealistic* ISO:FT's and got crickets (perhaps a genuinely informative BM on occaision, that was reacted to poorly based on how individuals react to what they likely feel is unsolicited criticism). Whoever posted the first Trade Value of X/Whats X Going to Take likely opened the floodgates, giving new traders an outlet to ask the questions that the old ISO:FT forums, in an at times unnecessarily hostile way, would have been able to address.

    The way things are now, how are you going to know the ratio of BTU's:KHU's? Is Bruery's Griffon Bruxellois not trading at all because there were questions regarding carbonation or because its still underhyped vs Sour in the Rye with Peaches, which has several ISO's? Really, what does it take to land a Huna? Smaller quantity 'loons? BT/CR? Whats my bottle of Wanderer, or Peche 'n Brett, or CS WWB B1 worth? Which of these beers I really want to try do I have the best chance at landing? The new common response is "Why dont you post an ISO:FT", but with no functioning feedback system in place (this is nothing but anecdotal comparison, but it seemed like there was a greater number of comments/post in the old ISO:FT than the new) there's going to be spillover into the Trading:General Help forum as these people are, ask you so succinctly mentioned asking for help.

    I dont even know how to tl;dr this.
    mattafett likes this.
  40. Pahn

    Pahn Dec 2, 2009 New York
    Beer Trader

    not obvious.
    OtisCampbell likes this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  • About Us

    Your go-to website for beer (since 1996), publishers of BeerAdvocate magazine (since 2006) and hosts of world-class beer events (since 2003). Respect Beer.
  • BeerAdvocate Microbrew Invitational

    Join us June 2-3, 2017 in Boston, Mass. for beer, cider, mead, kombucha and sake from over 70 small producers.

    Learn More
  • 10 Years of BeerAdvocate Magazine

    We're celebrating 10 years of BA mag with $10 print subscriptions for US residents!