London Dry Yeast

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by Tebuken, Feb 9, 2017.

  1. Tebuken

    Tebuken Aspirant (288) Jun 6, 2009 Argentina

    Hi guys, does anybody here know something about how this LONDON ESB dry yeast performs its fermentation?.I am planning on brewing a Red IPA.


    Cheers!!
     
  2. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Crusader (711) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    No...but I'm getting ready to brew a Stout with some...no pdf yet on Danstar's/Lallemand website but sounds like the attenuation should be 65-75% ...I'm hoping closer to 65% for my stout :slight_smile:
     
  3. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,738) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Premium

    Hope you'll both post your experiences
     
  4. premierpro

    premierpro Aspirant (238) Mar 21, 2009 Michigan

    I have just used this yeast in a pale ale. This yeast started within 12 hours and finished in three days. I am a week away from kegging this. From the advertising I saw with a quote from someone at Fullers I am guessing it's their strain. I could be wrong. Take care.
     
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  5. Hanglow

    Hanglow Crusader (733) Feb 18, 2012 United Kingdom (Scotland)

    There's a big thread on HBT about the yeast

    It's quick to ferment out, doesn't floc well, isn't the fullers yeast, doesn't ferment maltotriose, can make a decent beer

    I'm going to use it in a Burton when I can brew again, half I'll drink fresh and half I'll let secondary with brett, should leave a lot for the brett to chew through I'm hoping.


    http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=588922
     
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  6. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,640) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Premium

    But the link you provided had a mention of:

    "For that classic ESB flavor you need look no further than London ESB yeast from Lallemand - all the characteristics of a classic ESB strain in a convenient dry form"

    John Keeling
    Head Brewer
    Fullers Brewery, London

    Why would John Keeling comment upon a non-Fullers strain?

    Cheers!
     
  7. Hanglow

    Hanglow Crusader (733) Feb 18, 2012 United Kingdom (Scotland)

    Because he was paid? Look at the wording too, it's not stating that it is the fullers yeast at all.


    It's a revival of one of Danstars older dried yeasts that they discontinued.

    I think there is a post on either that thread or one on JBK where he replied to an emailed question about the yeast and he said that he thought a beer made with it was a good esb style beer. But it wasn't the Fullers strain

    Anyway, it's good to have more dried yeast available imo :slight_smile:
     
  8. minderbender

    minderbender Initiate (183) Jan 18, 2009 New York

    But by the same token, Jack, if the yeast doesn't flocculate well, then it bears little resemblance to what homebrewers know as the Fullers strain. And then the question is, who cares if it has a Fullers pedigree? "By their fruits you shall know them." I would be very interested in a dry yeast that fermented the same as Wyeast 1968. But I have less interest in a dry yeast that flocculates poorly, however genuine its connection to Fullers may be. And I suspect most people care more about how the yeast performs than about its genealogy.
     
  9. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,640) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Premium

    You are correct that he does not explicitly state the strain is the Fullers strain but it sure does imply it.
    I suppose it is possible that he was paid to endorse a differing yeast strain but that sure does sound weird to me.
    Agreed.

    Cheers!
     
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  10. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,640) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Premium

    But that is the 'question' at the moment. I am sure that some folks will purchase this new yeast thinking it is the Fullers strain. Maybe it will produce a beer similar to how the Fullers strain performs and then again maybe it won't.

    I am looking forward to reading what @premierpro has to report.

    Cheers!
     
  11. Hanglow

    Hanglow Crusader (733) Feb 18, 2012 United Kingdom (Scotland)

    Jack, I followed both that thread and the JBK thread on it from the start and like you I assumed it was the fullers strain due to that quote, but it came to pass that it wasn't. It looks like it is a good alternative to windsor

    Hopefully @premierpro gets a good beer from it :slight_smile:


    just searched jbk and it was me who started the thread lol :slight_smile:

    also got this

     
    #11 Hanglow, Feb 11, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2017
  12. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,640) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Premium

    I took note of:

    “We would not release Fullers yeast to the dried yeast market so I worked with them visiting their plants in Montreal and Vienna to come up with this yeast. I was very happy to endorse it as the beer was very good

    Cheers John Keeling”

    But yet the Fullers yeast is available to homebrewers as Wyeast 1968 (WLP002). I don’t get it. Does Fullers ‘approve’ of their yeast being available in liquid form but not in dry form? Does this make sense to you?

    Cheers!
     
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  13. minderbender

    minderbender Initiate (183) Jan 18, 2009 New York

    Maybe he thinks the liquid form properly represents the quality of the yeast, whereas he doesn't believe anyone has made a dry version that he wants associated with his brewery.
     
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  14. Hanglow

    Hanglow Crusader (733) Feb 18, 2012 United Kingdom (Scotland)

    It's not endorsed by fullers or JK though. You can't exactly keep control of a yeast that is available to anyone who can buy one of your bottle conditioned beers or who can swab a pint of your cask conditioned beers.

    You can though it seems get an all expenses paid trip to canada and austria, drink a few beers and get paid some money to say that a particular dried yeast makes a nice bitter. It's not as if there is much money in actually brewing beer so I understand why JK did it, although due to the recent gentrification of the market there is a lot of people who think you can :slight_smile:
     
  15. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,738) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Premium

    I was thinking along a similar line, that perhaps the Fuller's strain has never been made into a decent dry yeast. I don't know the reasons why some yeast strains might make for good dry yeasts and others don't but the limited availability of the diversity of dry yeast is suggestive.

    I am imagining a scenario where the Fullers strain was dried. Keeling was given a sample of beer made from it, and asked to make a statement: "This yeast produces beer very different from Fullers ESB yeast and it is not to my liking. If you like armpit, you might enjoy this yeast, but please do expect to be able to produce anything like ESB." In my imagination, he sounds a lot like John Cleese and does funny walks.
     
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  16. utahbeerdude

    utahbeerdude Disciple (365) May 2, 2006 Utah

    I was at a recent homebrew club meeting where several of the members had all brewed the same stout recipe (a supposed clone of Samuel Smiths Oatmeal Stout). Well, they nominally used the same grain bill, but a wide variety of yeasts were used by the brewers. I'm not even sure any particular yeast was used in more than one beer.

    One person brought growlers of a split batch -- one fermented with SO-4 and one with this dry ESB yeast. These two beers were very different. The SO-4 sample was very clean (among the cleanest of all the various stouts), while the ESB batch had all sorts of rather odd flavors going on. I can't recall exactly what these flavors were (it was a rather informal tasting of the different beers), but they were not what one would typically want in a stout. Sure, there may have been some problem with the ESB batch, but the difference between the SO-4 and ESB batch was striking.

    Overall, I was rather amazed at how different all of the stouts were. Just shows how tough it is for a typical homebrewer to clone a beer. BTW, the Sam Smiths Stout was there for comparison as well as the Anderson Valley Oatmeal Stout. None of the homebrewed beers was close to the SS, especially with regards to the rather unique aroma of the SS beer. Overall, the AV stout was very close to being my favorite off all the beers.

    Cheers!
     
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  17. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,640) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Premium

    There is just so many variables! Folks like to concentrate on the ingredients but the myriad of brewing process decisions can have very notable impacts on the resulting flavor profiles. For example, even using the same yeast strain if one brewer chooses to ferment on the low side of the recommended fermentation range and the other chooses to ferment on the high side of the recommended fermentation range the two beers could be notably different.

    And don't get me started about how they manage their brewing water!:wink:

    Cheers!
     
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  18. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Crusader (711) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    Honestly, the only reason I picked the London ESB dry yeast was that I was out of 1968, Windsor, and S-04 and need to make my Chile Porter/Stout...I don't know what to expect, but the attenuation band seems appropriate and I don't want to use US-05 for this beer. :confused:
     
  19. utahbeerdude

    utahbeerdude Disciple (365) May 2, 2006 Utah

    Good luck. It may be that the differences I reported were not due to the yeast. It will interesting to hear how your beer turns out.
     
  20. premierpro

    premierpro Aspirant (238) Mar 21, 2009 Michigan

    I did a split batch with five gallons pitched with the ESB and five with SO4. I will report back after I keg.
     
  21. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Crusader (711) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    Yes, I've brewed this Smoked Chile Porter ~ a dozen times so I should be able to pick out some "odd flavors" (before I dryhop with the chiles :slight_smile:)
     
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  22. premierpro

    premierpro Aspirant (238) Mar 21, 2009 Michigan

    I kegged my Pale Ales on Saturday.

    O.G. 1.060
    ESB F.G. 1.015
    S04 F.G. 1.010

    The ESB yeast was very fruity tasting. Because I kegged this one first I thought it was from the Citra and Mosiac hops I used. After tasting the S04 batch I realised how fruity this yeast is. Also the beer was not as clear as the S04 and the yeast on the bottom was not as firm. I dumped a Brown Ale on both cakes so we will see how this goes. Take care.
     
  23. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Crusader (711) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    Yes, fruitiest smelling yeast I think I have ever brewed with. I just stood in the walk-in closet and inhaled deeply while it was fermenting...also quick take-off @ 63*F ambient. I'm hoping for something resembling a Tropical Stout even though the OG is not high enough.

    Cheers
     
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  24. premierpro

    premierpro Aspirant (238) Mar 21, 2009 Michigan

    I kegged my brown ale this weekend that was fermented on the yeast cakes of ESB and S-04.

    O.G. 1.054
    F.G. ESB 1.010
    F.G. S-04 1.012

    Strange that the second generation seams to attenuate better then the first. The ESB was still very cloudy while theS-04 was clear. I have not tasted the carbed up samples of either batch yet so I will wait to pass judgment on this strain. Take care.
     
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  25. premierpro

    premierpro Aspirant (238) Mar 21, 2009 Michigan

    I tapped my keg of Pale Ale with the ESB yeast. Very Tasty brew. The beer is still quite hazy not sure if this will ever clear up. We will see what happens with this in a week or two. The flavor is very fruity. I had a friend over that is a master judge ( Not that it matters! ) and he had a hard time buying that the yeast was throwing that much fruit. Jury still out on this yeast. Take care.
     
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  26. Tebuken

    Tebuken Aspirant (288) Jun 6, 2009 Argentina

    Hey guys, finally I ´ve changed my mind brewing a ESB beer instead a Red IPA. I want to share what´s been happening with this brew. It ´s the beginning of the autum here and still very hot weather, so while I ´ve been struggling in regards fermentation temp. to try to keep it within reccomended range I think I failed. I can tell you the whole time was fermenting at 75 F, I know it is more than reccomended but not a crazy temp. The point is it took just 24 hs to ferment the bulk of wort(I guess 90% aprox) in a hectic way ,after that there was very little airlock activity and yeast has flocculated very soon.It is still bubbling 2 - 3 times by minute though. I am planning on taking a FG read today(8 days later) and taste it to see what I got. I am specting some acetaldehyde and fusel traces, I know I will need to age this beer longer for conditioning but who knows maybe I have a good beer.I will report back how this beer has turned out.

    Cheers!
     
    #26 Tebuken, Mar 27, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2017
    premierpro likes this.
  27. Tebuken

    Tebuken Aspirant (288) Jun 6, 2009 Argentina

    Well I have bad news, beer has not traces of fusels nor acetaldehyde, it has a harsh touch on taste, a bit weird , not pleasant, no fruity flavor just a subtle roasty hint in the middle of a jumble of ????.No diacetyl. It has a high FG 1023 from OG 1055 and yeast has settled down enormously , beer looks very clean.Result : fermentation stuck. I think culprit here was the high temp. of the fermentation day one .I am planning on reintroduce collected top cropped yeast from day one to see if it restarts to ferment to end the job, what do you think?
     
  28. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,640) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Premium

    So, you think you suffered a stuck fermentation due to warm/hot fermentation temperatures (e.g., mid-70's F)?

    I have never heard/read anything to suggest that a warm temperature would lead to a stuck fermentation. Based upon my readings I would expect the opposite to be the case. Brewers yeast actually prefers to propagate (grow) at warmer temperatures but we brewers prefer to manage the fermentation temperatures to be cooler since our primary objective during primary fermentation is to produce tasty beer vs. growing yeast.

    Cheers!
     
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  29. Tebuken

    Tebuken Aspirant (288) Jun 6, 2009 Argentina

    I don`t know what to think , my first thought was to blame the temperature, I have checked all items in my mind and found nothing out of the road. Rehydration correct, pitching rate correct, no need for aeration, date of yeast good, nothing. It is the fist time I ferment so high , i don`t know this yeast either, have nothing to compare from the past.I think yeast was healthy enough otherwise the first day of fermentation woudn`t have been so strong.BTW mash temp. was 149 F
    I am a bit bewildered
     
  30. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Initiate (197) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    I have heard of this yeast attenuating as low as 60%, so I'd blame the yeast for the low attenuation, nothing else.
     
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  31. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,738) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Premium

    Sounds like a good yeast to use with invert sugar.
     
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  32. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,640) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Premium

    @premierpro reported his results using the ESB yeast in this thread:

    Pale Ale (sachet):

    OG = 1.060
    FG = 1.015
    AA = 74%

    Brown Ale (yeast cake):

    OG = 1.054
    FG = 1.010
    AA = 81%

    Cheers!
     
  33. Tebuken

    Tebuken Aspirant (288) Jun 6, 2009 Argentina

    Last night I have repitched it with the top cropped yeast from day one fermentation, it was a thick slurry of about 50 ml ,hoping today morning would there be good fermentation activity but nothing has changed.Nevertheless it is still bubbling 1-2 times per minute so I decided to leave it alone without disturbing at room temp for a long period.
     
  34. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Initiate (197) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    Yeah, I saw that. Lucky dog. Others haven't been as lucky. Eventually I'll try this yeast myself, but not this year. For me, this is the year of the everything BUT English ales, as I just made a bunch of those the last couple years.
     
  35. corbmoster

    corbmoster Initiate (176) Dec 15, 2014 Texas

    1-2 bubbles / minute doesn't necessarily mean yeast are active. It most likely means CO2 is coming out of your beer. I doubt that it is a stuck fermentation due to 75 degree fermentation. That Danstar ESB is a monster and should be up for the challenge. Are you sure you didn't de-nature your enzymes with a hot mash? I suggest taking another gravity reading in 1-2 more days to see if there is a change. If you did de-nature your enzymes with a a hot mash, you could add amylayse enzyme. I saved my a stout with that stuff. The FG was not as low as I would have liked, but it ended up a decent beer.
     
  36. Tebuken

    Tebuken Aspirant (288) Jun 6, 2009 Argentina

    I don´t think so but I must tell you that you are right , mash temp has gone very high (158 F) but it took 2-3 minutes to me to get it down to 149 F using ice cubes.I don´t know how hard can this short time denature beta-amylase, I can not find information in regards this matter.
     
  37. premierpro

    premierpro Aspirant (238) Mar 21, 2009 Michigan

    I keep a pitcher of cold water by me when I mash in. Much easier to hit my preferred temp range. Take care.
     
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  38. premierpro

    premierpro Aspirant (238) Mar 21, 2009 Michigan

    O.K. My pale ale has been on draft for a month and still not clear. So I think its safe to say if you use this yeast do not think you will get clear beer. Good tasting beer, yes. Might be a Good choice for a NEIPA with the second generation. Take care.
     
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  39. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,738) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Premium

    Did you use finings?
     
  40. premierpro

    premierpro Aspirant (238) Mar 21, 2009 Michigan

    Yes. I use Irish Moss @ 15min. This was a split batch and the S04 was clear coming out of the fermenter. Take care.
     
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