Low Oxygen Brewing

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by OldBrewer, Apr 10, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. billandsuz

    billandsuz Pooh-Bah (2,097) Sep 1, 2004 New York
    Pooh-Bah

    Yes, I am aware.

    15 years. 2,000 years of brewing. 500 years of consistent brewing. 150 years of scientific brewing. 20 years of craft brewing. 15 years of HSA. There was even some questioning if HSA even exists much less if it is a problem to be fixed.

    You get my point.
     
    invertalon likes this.
  2. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    I do. I also hesitate to dismiss relatively new information/concepts just because they're relatively new. Well, as long as they aren't complete nonsense, anyway. The state of the art should advance, else there would be little point (to me anyway) of making my own beer. God knows I don't do it to save money. I think part of the reason HSA is so hotly debated at times is that HSA proponents rarely take the time to frame the discussion in terms of a good-better-best continuum or a marginal improvement type of scenario, and HSA sceptics feel like they are being told their beer sucks.

    Well, there's a reason I ferment Imperial Stouts in a bucket. (No, it's not hot side, but...)
     
    Dave_S, Witherby and Prep8611 like this.
  3. frozyn

    frozyn Maven (1,435) May 16, 2015 New York
    Trader

    I've never seen a better summary of the vitriol surrounding LODO methods and HSA. Bravo.
     
    Dave_S and Prep8611 like this.
  4. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,635) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    Sierra Nevada is the one I know of in the US. They have column strippers to remove the disolved gas in the brewery water. Correspondence with Bill Manley and John Palmer confirmed that.

    In Germany you can add Augustiner, Ayinger, and Schönram. There are probably more, but those are the ones talked about.

    Edit - to make a Helles like Augustiner you need to avoid O2 on the hot side. Many of the smaller older breweries have a house flavor, that once you know what it tastes like, you object to it. One German brewer said it is best to fill the mash tun and boil kettle from the bottom, those that fill from the top have more of this off flavor due to the aeration and splashing. That brewer mainly makes Dunkel.
     
    #44 hopfenunmaltz, Apr 12, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2018
    hoptualBrew likes this.
  5. Brewday

    Brewday Zealot (721) Dec 25, 2015 New York

    hoptualBrew and invertalon like this.
  6. TheBeerery

    TheBeerery Initiate (0) May 2, 2016 Minnesota

    Not exactly sure why, but my account was not allowed to post....

    What are the questions that need answers?
     
  7. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    There were a number of questions and issues raised in this thread. In particular, read Messages 1, 4, 15 and 20.
     
  8. CarolusP

    CarolusP Zealot (590) Oct 22, 2015 Minnesota

    In a movie theater, which arm rest is yours?
     
    GreenKrusty101 and Prep8611 like this.
  9. minderbender

    minderbender Initiate (0) Jan 18, 2009 New York

    I have a few questions that I don't think have been asked yet.

    1. I like to brew with kveik, a family of Norwegian farmhouse yeasts that can ferment in the high 90s Fahrenheit. I typically start my fermentations at about 95°F, and I insulate the fermenter so that the temperature probably rises a few degrees during active fermentation. Is adding pure oxygen at that temperature a bad idea? If so, is there any way to provide oxygen for my yeast, aside from using a fresh, well-oxygenated starter?

    2. Does yeast nutrient contain copper, and if so, should its use be minimized in low oxygen brewing?
     
  10. TheBeerery

    TheBeerery Initiate (0) May 2, 2016 Minnesota

    I add the yeast to the fermenter, sit for about 5 minutes, start o2(8ish ppm) then transfer. With the way I treat my yeast, I see all DO in the fermenter gone within about an hour, and active fermentation within 4-6. Chemical reactions happen magnitudes slower as the temperature lowers. This is why he have a bigger albeit still small ( sub 8hrs) time window on the cold, but prefermentation side.

    No, I do a slow underlet, and no dough balls. grain condition helps a lot (well milling in general)

    HSA is/has been a proven scientific fact, whether it maters to a person is the debate.

    Sadly I do. But thats ok, I am entitled to my own opinion.

    Pretty much all Macro brewers are, as they have to be, plus scale helps out dramitically. Most of those you just listed have state of the art German brewhouses, and are indeed low oxygen.

    You will see my name in the credits there, I am aware of it.

    Bamforth dramatically changes his tone in his most recent book "Freshness". You should check it out.


    HSA, DO, etc has been around since the early 1900's, its certainly not anything new. All these can be measured, and proven with science. Whether they matter to someone is really the only question.
     
  11. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Thanks. I might. (I bought "Foam" and was a little underwhelmed, but that was mainly because I was hoping it would answer a particular burning question, but it didn't.)
     
  12. Dan_K

    Dan_K Pooh-Bah (1,980) Nov 8, 2013 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    Yeah but they are usually talking about finished, packaged product. Since yeast scavenges oxygen during primary fermentation, I feel that it's a bit silly to avoid oxygen during the mash /or boil if you are later going to blast the wort with oxygen prior to / slightly after yeast pitch. Maybe I need more education on this topic.
     
  13. TheBeerery

    TheBeerery Initiate (0) May 2, 2016 Minnesota

    Hit me up, via a PM.

    The theory is that there is a malt antioxidant -ascorbic oxidase- that when preserved, lends itself to glorious fresh tasting lingering grain flavor. Since this is an antioxidant if any part of the hot side brewing process that contains oxygen the oxidase expels itself. You can actually see (well, smell) this happening when you dough in. You know that mashing smell of wondrous grain? Thats it evaporating, low oxygen hot sides have literally zero odor, and that flavor/aroma is preserved until serving.
     
    hopfenunmaltz and Dan_K like this.
  14. Brewday

    Brewday Zealot (721) Dec 25, 2015 New York

    Would you suggest doing lodo with all beer styles. My last batch (marzen) tasted like raisin bran but i'm not sure if i would get that with a brown or red ale.
     
  15. TheBeerery

    TheBeerery Initiate (0) May 2, 2016 Minnesota

    1. Not really as long as the yeast are active and can consume it.
    2. Its depends on the brands, but usually its zinc, and sulfate, etc.

    As we have always said, recipes sometimes need to be reconsidered. I am not sure what the recipe was. All the beers I brew are lodo. But if you are trying to recreate something that is historically/stylistically not lodo, then YMMV.
     
    minderbender likes this.
  16. thebriansmaude

    thebriansmaude Crusader (472) Dec 16, 2016 Canada (AB)
    Trader

    I’m curious about the yeast pitching process - I usually pitch a starter fresh from the fridge that was cold crashed and decanted, so I’m assuming it takes a bit longer for the yeast to wake up, and thus longer exposure of the wort to the pure oxygen I just injected...

    Would you suggest warming the yeast back up before pitching, or not cold crash / decant at all?
     
  17. wasatchback

    wasatchback Pooh-Bah (1,574) Jan 12, 2014 Tajikistan
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    Decant all your starter wort in the AM then add a small amount of wort and O2 to wake them up the morning you brew. They’ll be rip roaring ready by the time you need them. Just make sure the starter is relatively close to to pitching temp. (No room temp starter pitched into 46* wort)
     
  18. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    They may be rip roaring, but they will be rip roaring in an environment that's different from the one you're about to plunk them into. That small amount of wort doesn't trigger them to get ready to build cell walls and divide, which is the first thing they need to do in the main wort.

    I have never seen any data to indicate any benefit to the final beer of "waking up" the yeast with a small amount of wort. And I can't come up with any logical hypothesis to point to a possible benefit. OTOH, it may not hurt to do it.
     
  19. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    Odd - I'm not getting any notifications of any posts in this thread although I created it and have a "Watch" on it. I just happened to check it, otherwise I wouldn't have seen all the additional responses.

    Thanks for your answers, TheBeerery - much appreciated. Also thanks for all the other excellent comments by others!

    I can now verify that underletting does not create any noticeable dough balls. I brewed a Pilsner last weekend using the underletting method. The grain had saturated very well and after a gentle stir I noticed no dough balls at all. It seems to be a far better way of introducing the strike water than adding it to the grain as I have been doing for years.

    The only main disadvantage is that the mash tun (a 10 gallon Rubbermaid picnic cooler) does not get the chance to warm up before-hand, as it does when first adding the strike water and allowing it to cool to the strike temperature. So after I achieved the mash temperature, while it was mashing, the temperature dropped significantly as it adjusted to the lower temperature of the cooler. Therefore, after 90 minutes, the temperature of the mash was about 4 or 5 F below the mash temperature, rather than losing a degree or two. I therefore assume that the grain mashed at about 147 or 146 F for the first part rather than at 149 F.
     
  20. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania

    I always like to pitch active yeast, but, in reality, a quick start has much more to do with the amount of yeast that you pitch and much less to do with their level of activity when you pitch them.
     
    thebriansmaude likes this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.