Malt Backbone help

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by Lefty1881, Aug 3, 2012.

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  1. Lefty1881

    Lefty1881 Initiate (0) Dec 31, 2010 Florida

    We keep scoring high in aroma, taste, etc.. But the common criticism of our brews is lack of malt or mouthfeel balance.. And it's true, I always want more from our beers. They have great hop presence, but not enough thickness and body. It's like a really hoppy unbalanced IPA. We've come in 2nd in some competitions, but want to go beyond. We follow our own recipes, hit our numbers in temp & gravity, and even when we make clones using the same amount of malts we are lacking in malt flavor and feel.

    What can we do to fix this, and what might we be doing wrong? Before I order an expensive imperial stout grain bill, I want to know what the deal might be. Thanks!
     
  2. Homebrew42

    Homebrew42 Initiate (0) Dec 20, 2006 New York

    To increase malt flavor use a more flavorful base malt and a yeast that highlights malt characteristics. To increase body increase your mash temperature and/or add some more dextrinous malts.
     
    jlpred55 and Bay01 like this.
  3. BigAB

    BigAB Initiate (0) Aug 4, 2008 Iowa

    Marris Otter malt and/or WLP007 yeast.
     
  4. yinzer

    yinzer Initiate (0) Nov 24, 2006 Pennsylvania

    Often over looked are the proteins from oats, unmalted grains, wheat, etc. I just got some spelt that I'm looking to try.

    OP, I'm curious, what's your typical mash efficiency? What are your carbination levels?
     
  5. Bay01

    Bay01 Initiate (0) Nov 19, 2008 Illinois

    What is your typical mash temp and yeast?
     
  6. Lefty1881

    Lefty1881 Initiate (0) Dec 31, 2010 Florida

    I believe last IPA I made was mashed 155, with US-05 Safale.
    As for carb levels, not sure how to test that if you could help us with that. We force carb and have it at a serving pressure of 11-12 with a good amount of head.
     
  7. Homebrew42

    Homebrew42 Initiate (0) Dec 20, 2006 New York

    For starters stop using US-05, it does nothing to accentuate malt flavor and it drains beer of body. WLP007/WY1098 is a good suggestion, I also like WLP013/WY1028 and WLP002/WY1968.

    If you know the temperature of your beer and the amount of pressure you're putting on it then this chart will tell you how many volumes of CO2 you're pushing in:

    http://sdcollins.home.mindspring.com/ForceCarbonation.html
     
  8. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    On the body problem... how long are you mashing? And are you doing a mashout step, or at least getting your runnings above 170F pretty quickly?
     
  9. Pegli

    Pegli Initiate (0) Aug 30, 2006 Rhode Island

    Are you using American 2-row as a base malt ?
     
  10. Lefty1881

    Lefty1881 Initiate (0) Dec 31, 2010 Florida

    We just do a batch sparge with water about 170. Should we use higher temp water? Is a mash out similar to this, or is it a different process?
     
  11. Lefty1881

    Lefty1881 Initiate (0) Dec 31, 2010 Florida

    Yes we use 2-row
     
  12. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    This idea will work (and I would call it a mashout if you leave it in the tun for a few minutes before draining), but 170F water will not raise the wort to 170F. To do that, you'll need to go higher, depending on the amount of grain and water already in the tun, its temperature, and the amount af water you're adding. You can find the sweet spot for a given recipe by trial and error, or better yet, use math. I think the formulae are in 'How to Brew.'

    Edit: For this to truly mash out all of the wort, you'd need to add hot water before draining the first runnings.
     
  13. Lefty1881

    Lefty1881 Initiate (0) Dec 31, 2010 Florida

    Sooo- let the mash sit at 155 for an hour, then add something like 182 degree water, then collect all the runnings?
     
  14. Pegli

    Pegli Initiate (0) Aug 30, 2006 Rhode Island

    Then I suggest substituting in a portion of more flavorful base malt.
     
  15. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Yes. That's an approach that would add some body. Your mash efficiency will be a bit lower, because the wort you're leaving behind in the grains and deadspace won't be as diluted. FWIW, I do most styles this way now.
     
  16. Homebrew42

    Homebrew42 Initiate (0) Dec 20, 2006 New York

    Bottom line: If you want more malt flavor, use more flavorful malt. Try subbing some or all of your domestic 2-row for maris otter, golden promise, munich, vienna, or some other more intensly flavored base malt.
     
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  17. NiceFly

    NiceFly Initiate (0) Dec 22, 2011 Tajikistan

    I think taking a good look at your water profile will work better than anything else suggested in this thread, no offense.
     
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  18. Homebrew42

    Homebrew42 Initiate (0) Dec 20, 2006 New York

    While water chemistry certainly does have an impact on malt flavor, to say that it has more impact than the flavor of the malt you're using seems a bit overstated, no offense.
     
  19. NiceFly

    NiceFly Initiate (0) Dec 22, 2011 Tajikistan

    None taken.
    But the OP is talking about Imperial Stout where I dare say there is plenty of flavorful malts and mashing at 155. And he is already getting 2nd place in competitions. Time to look at the water.
     
  20. Naugled

    Naugled Pooh-Bah (1,944) Sep 25, 2007 New York
    Pooh-Bah

    I would also shorten your mash to 30 min at 155F. Also, when you start draining the tun, fire the kettle as soon as you feel comfortable to keep the run off at a high temp. By doing this you will be favoring the alpha enzymes and limiting the beta enzymes activity, which will give you a less fermentable wort.
     
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