Mash pH

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by magoo0903, Feb 16, 2018.

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  1. magoo0903

    magoo0903 Initiate (0) Nov 26, 2008 North Carolina

    Guys

    Simple question... how / when to measure mash pH?

    I was under the impression that we should measure the pH of the wort pre-boil after mash out and sparging

    I did a quick google search and I seem to be wrong. Mash pH seams to be measured directly from the mash tun.

    At which point should we measure it though? When the sparge water went through or before mashing out?

    In my case - I was brewing an Irish stout with mash pH target of 5.5.
    I got an sample of the wort in the kettle after the hop addition (foregot to do it sooner...) and after cooling it down to room temperature It was at 5.8 pH.

    Considering that the wort was measured and after the hop addition, is there a way to gauge if the mash pH was anywhere close to 5.5?

    Thx
     
  2. wasatchback

    wasatchback Pooh-Bah (1,574) Jan 12, 2014 Tajikistan
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    Measure after 15 minutes or so
    Measure Sparge PH, adjust as necessary
    Measure at start of boil, adjust as necessey
    Measure at end of boil, adjust as necessary

    Even measure during fermentation if you like to see how it changes.
     
  3. Silver_Is_Money

    Silver_Is_Money Devotee (337) Jun 4, 2017 Ohio

    pH is typically measured 15-20 minutes into the mash.
     
  4. magoo0903

    magoo0903 Initiate (0) Nov 26, 2008 North Carolina

    Ok. Bru’n water recommend adding acid in gin the sparge water. Which would impact mash pH - right. Should the r adding be done twice then? 15 min in and after the sparge water makes its way through the mash?

    Thx
     
  5. JohnnyChicago

    JohnnyChicago Initiate (0) Sep 3, 2010 Illinois

    I’d reccomed against adding acid before the first measurement unless you are making a very light beer that you KNOW will be high in pH, like a Kölsch or something. And event then, have a light hand. There is just too much variation in grain to dial it in perfectly.

    Grain in. Mix. Measure, adjust. It’s easier to drop pH than raise it.

    I usually take my first reading about 15 minutes in, from the grant, and will measure at least 3 more times before cooling in. You can never take too many measurements. It’s just more data to work with.
     
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  6. Silver_Is_Money

    Silver_Is_Money Devotee (337) Jun 4, 2017 Ohio

    Sparge water which has alkalinity at roughly 15 ppm or greater (measured as CaCO3) is acidified (if/as needed) separately (as well as differently in purpose) from strike water (which also may or may not require acidification, as seen below). The objective in acidifying sparge water is to neutralize only sufficient alkalinity such that the sparge water achieves a measured pH of 5.4 to 5.6. If you are using respectable quality RO (TDS of ~20 or preferably less) or distilled (typically exhibiting a TDS of 8 or less) there should be no need to acidify your sparge water regardless of its measured pH, as its buffering capacity (ability to resist change in pH) is nill.

    Strike water is acidified or made basic (or left alone) to counter (if/as needed) the grists aggregate post mineralization Mash pH and bring the wort to a room temperature measure of typically 5.3 to 5.5 pH at ~20 minutes into the mash. I prefer to adjust strike water in advance of the mash, as by 20 minutes into the mash ~80% or more of starch conversion has likely already taken place.
     
  7. magoo0903

    magoo0903 Initiate (0) Nov 26, 2008 North Carolina

    Thanks. I think I understand
    Are you familiar with bru’n water? Is it a good tool to guide me achieving the optimized water profile and mash pH?
     
  8. Eggman20

    Eggman20 Crusader (433) Feb 14, 2017 Minnesota

    That's what I've used and my PHs have always been pretty close. Only needed to adjust PH after start of mash once in 30 or so batches using it. And it is very simple to use as well.
     
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  9. Silver_Is_Money

    Silver_Is_Money Devotee (337) Jun 4, 2017 Ohio

    Actually I've developed my own mash pH adjustment assistant spreadsheet and made it available as a free download. Do a web search for 'Mash Made Easy'.
     
    thebriansmaude likes this.
  10. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    I have used Bru'n water in the past and for me it has consistently predicted a pH higher that I actually achieved. FWIW my preferred water tool is MpH which can be downloaded here:

    http://homebrewingphysics.blogspot.com/2016/03/brewing-water-calculator-mph-water.html

    I measure my mash pH after I have conducted the entire mash; I measure it just to verify things (the MpH tool works pretty good for me).

    I just got done homebrewing a batch of Classic American Pilsner. I add lactic acid to acidify my mash water. MpH predicted I would achieve a mash pH of 5.47 and my measured pH was 5.3. So MpH does predict a mash pH a bit higher than I achieve (and do achieve for other batches) but no by much (a little over 0.1 more).

    Cheers!

    @utahbeerdude
     
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  11. TheBeerery

    TheBeerery Initiate (0) May 2, 2016 Minnesota

  12. magoo0903

    magoo0903 Initiate (0) Nov 26, 2008 North Carolina

    Thanks - I will look into it before my next brew. I may try to use a couple different for a while and keep the one which seems to be the closest for me

    Cheers

    Matt
     
  13. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    That is exactly what I did. I set up an Excel sheet where I collected the data for three batches of beer:

    Oatmeal Stout:

    · Bru’n Water: 5.8

    · MpH: 5.6

    · Measured: 5.4

    Classic American Pilsner

    · Bru’n Water: 5.7

    · MpH: 5.5

    · Measured: 5.4

    Tmavý Ležák (Czech Dark Lager):

    · Bru’n Water: 5.5

    · MpH: 5.5

    · Measured: 5.3

    After those three batches I decided to utilize MpH for my brewing.

    Cheers!
     
    utahbeerdude likes this.
  14. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,635) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    It depends on your input data on the water and grist, how well you measure you salts and acids, when you pull the sample (about 15 min for me).

    Bru’nwater predicted 5.30 for my last beer, a pale ale. I measured 5.30.
     
  15. magoo0903

    magoo0903 Initiate (0) Nov 26, 2008 North Carolina

    Thanks - this is a good tool. Simple to use and clear.
    How do you add baking soda or chalk in the table? Is it that you do not recommend doing so?
     
  16. magoo0903

    magoo0903 Initiate (0) Nov 26, 2008 North Carolina

    This may be a rookie question but - on the malt tab - Barley Flake - should it be a W, B, C or R? Or should it be left out?
    Thanks
     
  17. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    I would select B for Flaked Barley.

    The person who developed MpH is Mark Rifle (BA @utahbeerdude). If you have any further questions on using MpH I would encourage you to start a conversation with him. He has been very helpful to me in the past.

    Cheers!
     
  18. utahbeerdude

    utahbeerdude Maven (1,374) May 2, 2006 Utah

    The distilled-water pH of flaked barley is about 5.5 (and its buffering capacity is comparable to base grains with a similar pH), so I would select "B" and adjust the color to about 9 (even though this isn't the actual color). Cheers!
     
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  19. Silver_Is_Money

    Silver_Is_Money Devotee (337) Jun 4, 2017 Ohio

    The 'Mash Made Easy' spreadsheet tells you if you need to add baking soda, and (when needed) it tells you how much to add. You do not tell the spreadsheet to add baking soda.

    Since chalk additions are generally quite ineffective, there is no chalk option. Most of the time it merely precipitates out, and thereby it does not contribute or do what you are banking upon it to do.
     
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  20. Shawn3997

    Shawn3997 Initiate (0) Aug 25, 2016 Arkansas

    On this subject: My last pilsner beer had a 5.65 pH when I measured it 15 minutes into the mash. I added a little acid to get it to 5.45 but I wasn't sure if I needed to. Is 5.65 considered too high or is it within the safe zone?
     
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