Melanoidin Comparisons

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by OldBrewer, Dec 15, 2017.

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  1. Silver_Is_Money

    Silver_Is_Money Devotee (337) Jun 4, 2017 Ohio

    What mineral profile do you prefer for the water used to brew your Pils or Pilsners?

    https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com
     
    #41 Silver_Is_Money, Dec 17, 2017
  2. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Needless to say but you will need differing information sources to brew: “I was open to all pilsners (Czech Republic, Classic American, etc.)”.

    Cheers
     
    #42 JackHorzempa, Dec 17, 2017
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  3. TheBeerery

    TheBeerery Initiate (0) May 2, 2016 Minnesota

    Ahh, I am not sure I know of a source for this. Kunze has a malt chapter but I don't recall I have ever seen it tested/reported, at least not off the top of my head.
     
    #43 TheBeerery, Dec 17, 2017
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  4. TheBeerery

    TheBeerery Initiate (0) May 2, 2016 Minnesota


    Depends on the region. Some are more minerally (northern), some are much softer ( Munich). I tend to make more Munich styles, so I go for soft water, 40ppm ca, 25ppm NA, 70CL, 40-50 Cas04, or something there abouts.
     
    #44 TheBeerery, Dec 17, 2017
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  5. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,647) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    It is not that simple. Where I lived, my part of Wiesbaden got the water from the Rhein, and it was terrible. Some German friends lived on the north side of town, and their water was very nice, as it came out of the Taunus Mountains.

    Here is a little map. The hardness can change due to the local geology. Most of the North has soft water.

    http://www.wasser.de/inhalt.pl?kategorie=2000113
     
    #45 hopfenunmaltz, Dec 17, 2017
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  6. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    Oh, I was under the impression that these books would provide the answer. However, this is getting to be more and more interesting. I'm very surprised that such comparisons aren't readily available. I've seen lots of descriptions on these grains, but the information is usually quite general. I'll see what I can dig up and if I find anything, I can report it here.
     
    #46 OldBrewer, Dec 17, 2017
  7. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Initiate (0) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    The only way to really figure out any grain is to taste it...preferably in a beer...and preferably your beer while controlling other variables
     
    #47 GreenKrusty101, Dec 17, 2017
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  8. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    Absolutely. But I always like to start with some general scope rather than re-inventing the wheel. Isn't that what these forums are all about? Nobody can tell you what is right for your individual taste, but successful recipes do help define a reasonable range of what works. Otherwise the experiment could take years. This is why I mentioned recipes. These have already been prepared according to experimentation and the good ones generally fall within a good acceptance of how much of each grain works. Obviously everyone has different tastes, but at least the quantities are within a much more narrow range than if someone was starting without any parameters whatsoever. I have experience with melanoidin malt, and have narrowed it down to where I enjoy it (3-4 ounces depending on other ingredients, specific gravity, IBU, etc.). However, I have very little experience with the other malts such as Vienna, Munich, Aromatic, etc. Do I start with 4 ounces? Eight? Twelve? Sixteen? Do I combine it with Munich? How much Munich should I start with to give me a similar impression of melanoidin?.

    Thus, ideally, I was hoping for some source that might compare the general melanoidin content in each of these grains so that I could at least start somewhere within a range which I would be happy with. Since that doesn't seem to exist, my next hope was that I could obtain some pilsner recipes from experienced individuals, using these grains, that were found by their experience to be suitable to their tastes.

    Once I have a scope for these general ranges, I can more practically begin to experiment, and vary the amounts in my own recipes to come up with a suitable amount.
     
    #48 OldBrewer, Dec 17, 2017
  9. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Initiate (0) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    Malt, by Mallett and Designing Great Beers, by Daniels
     
    #49 GreenKrusty101, Dec 17, 2017
  10. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    I have Daniel's books, but his information is primarily about Maillard reactions and how melanoidins are formed. He doesn't get into the different grains that contain melanodins at all and how much they contain.

    With respect to the malts, he provides the same vague description of Vienna and Munich malts as do other sources. For example, his entry for Vienna Malt is:

    "Produced in the same way as Munich malt with similar applications. It is higher in color than Munich malt, which gives it a solid to orange effect. It contains adequate enzymes for conversion of its own starch".

    Not even a single word that it contains melanoidins, which in my opinion is one of the most vital distinguishing features of various specialty malts, especially Vienna and Munich!

    I do not have the book "Malt" Does it provide more specific information on melanoidin content than Daniel's book?
     
    #50 OldBrewer, Dec 17, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2017
  11. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    @OldBrewer, have you ever had the chance to drink the ‘new’ beer of Stroh’s Bohemian-style pilsner?

    Below is a description from the website:

    “Introducing Stroh’s Bohemian-style pilsner

    Stroh Brewery Co. is proud to honor our brewing heritage by reintroducing Stroh’s Bohemian-Style Pilsner. Our Master Brewer has crafted an exceptional European-style pilsner brewed in the heart of Detroit, using Saaz and Magnum hops with Vienna malt. The result is a crisp, balanced pilsner, with a floral aroma, subtle hop spice, and a rich, bready maltiness. Brewed for everyday enjoyment, this is a Bohemian-Style Pilsner worthy of the Stroh’s name.”

    http://strohbeer.com/bohemian-style-pilsner/

    Maybe if you contact the below they may share the grain bill for this beer:

    · Greg Deuhs who has the title of Master Brewer at Pabst

    · The brewery where this beer is produced: Brew Detroit

    Cheers!

    P.S. Maybe Detroit is not a long drive for you? Maybe a visit/tour of Brew Detroit would be a worthwhile adventure for you?
     
    #51 JackHorzempa, Dec 17, 2017
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  12. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Initiate (0) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    Yes, but it's not necessarily going to tell you what it tastes like...Melanoidin Malt and Aromatic have more melanoidin than dark Munich, dark Munick has more than light Munich, etc,., etc.
    Chapter 6 of Mallett's book (Malt Chemistry) is a good read as well as Appendix A (Commercially Available Malts in the US as of 2014)
    Chapter 10 (malt Quality and Analysis) is helpful as malsters usually use a Certificate of Analysis (COA) which for European malts would use a "Hartong Number" for modification, etc.
    Flavor as a result of Maillard reactions (producing melanoidins) is not really measurable, but generally follows color of malts with diastatic power.
    Might want to look at something like Weyermann's malt flavor wheel
    https://www.weyermann.de/eng/gelbe_seiten_en.asp?go=mr&umenue=yes&idmenue=37&sprache=2
     
    #52 GreenKrusty101, Dec 17, 2017
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  13. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    Thanks for the suggestion, Jack! I have not seen that beer before (not even sure if it's available in Canada) but it is worth pursuing. Detroit is about a four hour drive, but if I'm ever in that area, I will definitely consider visiting the Brewery. In the meantime, I will try to contact them. I hope I get a response, as 90% of my emails to breweries are never answered or even acknowledged. I never know why they even bother with a "contact email" :-)
     
    #53 OldBrewer, Dec 17, 2017
  14. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    Thanks! Seems like a very interesting and worthwhile book. I'll check to see if Weyerman also has flavor wheels for Vienna and Munich malts.
     
    #54 OldBrewer, Dec 17, 2017
  15. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    They do; I was looking at them earlier. They sort of quantify malt flavors via their wheels but it beats me how you could 'translate' that towards constructing a specific grain bill (e.g., x% Pilsner Malt, y% Vienna Malt).

    Cheers!
     
    #55 JackHorzempa, Dec 17, 2017
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  16. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,647) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    @TheBeerery you gave some information on the hops in Bitburger. Can you share similar information for Ayinger Pils and Weihenstephaner Original?
     
    #56 hopfenunmaltz, Dec 17, 2017
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  17. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    True, but at this point - anything helps :-)
     
    #57 OldBrewer, Dec 17, 2017
  18. utahbeerdude

    utahbeerdude Maven (1,374) May 2, 2006 Utah

    While I cannot directly answer this question, I'll point you to my Munich Helles recipe I posted a while back. It uses 20% Munich malt, which definitely gives a substantial malt character beyond just pilsner malt.

    In fact, I suspect there is no good answer to your question, as I believe the added maltiness from the different malts is rather different. I base this on my experience in tasting the malts themselves; the flavors of Vienna, Munich, Aromatic, Melanoidin, and Honey (Brumalt) malts are rather varied.

    Cheers!
     
    #58 utahbeerdude, Dec 17, 2017
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  19. TheBeerery

    TheBeerery Initiate (0) May 2, 2016 Minnesota

    I saw your recipe, and added my 2 cents worth to make it more authentic (if thats what you were going for).
     
    #59 TheBeerery, Dec 17, 2017
  20. utahbeerdude

    utahbeerdude Maven (1,374) May 2, 2006 Utah

    Interesting remarks regarding a more authentic recipe and process; I believe others will find them useful. Since I posted that recipe, I have tended to back off a bit on the Munich (I believe more like 10% as you suggest). I would guess your suggested higher pitch rate would help get the FG more in line with where it typically "should be". I'll remark that the 1.016 FG did not result in what I would call a sweet beer, but perhaps one that was just more full bodied. As for the finishing hops, I add them because I like a bit of hop flavor. Cheers!
     
    #60 utahbeerdude, Dec 18, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2017
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