More competition questions...

I would say yes.
The '08 Guidelines don't explicitly cover this exact scenario but the '14 update does clarify that Saison + brett would go elsewhere.

 

I am still studying for my BJCP, take the test in a couple months, but my Saison with Brett at bottling, 7 months old, took 2nd in a comp, and one of the judges I know personally, and he is a stickler for "to style". His notes even comment on Brett character in my beer.

 

*shrug*
25B. Saison
"...Brettanomyces is not typical for this style.
Style Comparison: Saisons with Brett should be entered as American Wild Ales."

again, if it wasn't clear, it will be next year. For now, 16E is best.

 

Yes.

BEGIN RANT

But reading through both the old and new guidelines, they state that Brett is not characteristic to the style, which is complete and totally absurd BS! The beer was brewed on a friggin farm and aged for 6-12 months before being served from wooden casks. If that beer didn't have any Brett in it, then neither does Crooked Stave. Most of the really good American Farmhouse Ales out there that everyone is clamoring for have Brett, and usually more. Fantome - which they list numerous versions of as a classic style - alone turns all that noise off.

END RANT

 

I agree with your rant. My biggest issue with any of the BJCP style guidelines has always been their Saison guidelines. I feel they might as well just change the category name to Saison Dupont.

The entire purpose of a Saison is not to have any strict guidelines. I understand that for competitions guidelines are necessary, but taking out ingredients that can be found in many many examples, both classic and modern, kind of defeats the purpose of even having the category.

 

Culture the dregs from Saison Dupont... let them sit for a few more weeks at room temp... tell me what you see form on top of the starter... That is what makes there "style guidelines" even worse.

 

Never tried that but I have heard they have a diverse culture in there. Was not aware of Brett or other bugs.

 

Neither was I until I left my culture in the incubator for 6 weeks. I'm going to grab another bottle soon and step it up again to confirm. The bottle I used was the lower ABV table beer.

 

25B. Saison

"...Brettanomyces is not typical for this style.

Style Comparison: Saisons with Brett should be entered as American Wild Ales."

And:

“…my Saison with Brett at bottling, 7 months old, took 2nd in a comp, and one of the judges I know personally, and he is a stickler for "to style". His notes even comment on Brett character in my beer.”

This most certainly demonstrates the “guideline” aspect of the BJCP Style Guidelines!?!

Cheers!

 

lots of stuff here, even some indignation. That's fine.

...OP asked where it should go in a competition. I gave an answer based on the guidelines (or "guidelines" if you must ) that said competition will be run on, not my personal beliefs.

just sayin'

 

You do recognize the ‘irony’ that somebody won 2nd place in a BJCP sanctioned competition with a beer that is clearly not consistent with the published style guidelines for that category?

Cheers!

 

Oh no, no indignation towards you or your answer at all (sorry if I miscommunicated that). It is the correct one according to the guidelines we as competition entrants and judges have submitted to. My indignation is solely w/ the guidelines themselves and those who made them up for this style.

BEGIN RANT
How can they list as a Classic Example a beer known for its Brett character and say "no Brett"? How can they say "no Brett" when the definitive book on the style explicitly states original beers would have mixed cultures including bacteria and Brett?
END RANT

 

1) by putting quotes on it, are you suggesting it is NOT ironic?

2) I didn't judge it. And if you've never had a poorly or incorrectly judged beer then I say you're one of the lucky few. And finally, I *DID* say that it wasn't explicit in the current guidelines, didn't I? So, with all that together, the answer is no, I do not find it ironic.

3) on the subject of bashing the guidelines, I'm done. If anyone feels like they need to disparage the body of work, as if the entire thing is in question, then we don't have anything to discuss. I like the guidelines, a great deal.

cheers--
--Michael

 

Michael,

“…by putting quotes on it, are you suggesting it is NOT ironic?” No, that was not my intent. I do indeed think the situation is ironic.

“…on the subject of bashing the guidelines, I'm done.” It was not my personal intent to bash the guidelines. I simply was pointing out that at a BJCP sanctioned competition a beer was awarded 2nd place for a beer that was not consistent with the guidelines. As you posted above the guidelines explicitly state: "...Brettanomyces is not typical for this style. Style Comparison: Saisons with Brett should be entered as American Wild Ales."

Cheers!

Jack

 

no, I said the FUTURE guidelines say that. c'mon Jack...

 

Needless to say I missed that; my apologies.

Cheers!

 

Wow, guess I have caused quite a ruckus up in here. I too like the guidelines, a great deal. I enjoy both entering and judging competitions. I take some issues with specific points in the guidelines that just don't work or make sense. Saison is one of these that I (as seen above) disagree with profusely. @udubdawg is correct, the 2008 BJCP do not contain a statement against Brett. The 2014 do, which again, I believe to be total BS, but I am pleased that they did give expanded wild and sour categories to mirror the growing "styles" of these types of beers.

 

For penance and absolution I too re-read the 2008 guidelines and you are correct: “…2008 BJCP do not contain a statement against Brett.” Having said that, when I read the aroma and flavor sections I did not see any verbiage that relates to Brett being part of the fermentation (e.g., funky, barnyard, horse blanket, etc.).

I suppose this is indeed a situation where the judges should be permitted some lee-way since it can be argued there is some ambiguity here?

Cheers!