Moving late additions into the whirlpool

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by epk, Dec 19, 2018.

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  1. epk

    epk Pundit (849) Jun 10, 2008 New Jersey

    Seeing this trend with shifting late additions into the a whirlpool a lot more. As I never done it myself, I figured I might give it a try. Wondering what people's experiences are with it and if they feel they lost something without any kettle hops.

    Would you recommend dropping them in at FO and getting a little more bitterness or simply cutting the heat, dropping the temp to 170, and then tossing them in (the last IPA I did I acutally tossed them in around 180 and continued to cool to 170 before cutting off the chiller, and standing for 10 mins)?

    This is the current recipe I'm toying with below. Just looking for a citursy IPA with a slightly more prominent malt profile than the last IPA I did (which was all 2 Row and a dash of light crystal and carapils).

    11 gal
    1066 OG
    IBU 65

    Mash @150

    14 lb 2 Row
    14 lb Golden Promise
    1 lb Munich (10 L)
    1 oz of Carafa II (for a touch of color)

    3 oz Tomahawk (16%) @ 60
    2 oz Citra (11%) @ WP
    4 oz Mandarina Bavaria (7.5%) @ WP
    2 oz Simcoe (13%) @ WP
    2 oz Citra (11%) @ DH
    4 oz Mandarina Bavaria (7.5%) @ DH
    2 oz Simcoe (13%) @ DH

    Ferment @ 64 wyeast London Ale III 1318 - looking at my notes, I don't think I have ever used this yeast actually. Says it can finish somewhat sweet which I'm on the fence about.
     
    #1 epk, Dec 19, 2018
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  2. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania

    I'd do it just like you did it with your last IPA.

    I might think about dropping that Munich. Just to make sure your beer doesn't fall off quickly.

    You're going to need more hops for 11 gallons.
     
    #2 EvenMoreJesus, Dec 19, 2018
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  3. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    I will be interested in reading other BA thoughts in this thread.

    A week ago I homebrewed (once again) a batch of Pliny the Elder based upon the homebrew recipe that Vinnie Cilurzo provided. I conducted a 90 minutes boil (as per the recipe) and I added kettle hops as per the recipe:

    · 0.75 ounce Columbus for 45 minutes of boiling

    · 1 ounce Simcoe for 30 minutes of boiling

    Cheers!
     
    #3 JackHorzempa, Dec 19, 2018
  4. epk

    epk Pundit (849) Jun 10, 2008 New Jersey

    Yeah, I know there is a lot of variance out there on hopping rate preferences. For this approach, I saw some posts elsewhere that basically said they bitter to 60-70 IBUs then add 4-5 ounces in the whirlpool and 4-5 ounces dryhops for 5 gallons. On the other hand, I've also seen some crazy high rates.
     
    #4 epk, Dec 19, 2018
  5. epk

    epk Pundit (849) Jun 10, 2008 New Jersey

    Thanks.

    So you are thinking the munich could become too prominent as the hops fade a bit?

    I have this feeling you would recommend doubling the amount I have listed. I was just looking at that Milkshake IPA in the recipes section and my head exploded thinking about how many ounces I would need for 11 gallons (of course this isn't a NEIPA).
     
    #5 epk, Dec 19, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2018
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  6. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    It has the appearance of being a cultural shift: adding kettle hops is so 'old fashioned'; that is what the old fogies did (do) since they do not understand the new way of brewing.

    I hope to someday read a technical article which quantifies that adding kettle hops does not bring something to the party.

    Cheers!
     
    #6 JackHorzempa, Dec 19, 2018
  7. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania

    The melanoidins in Munich can lead to premature staling of hop related compounds when they oxidize.

    https://www.morebeer.com/articles/Staling_Compounds

    How'd you guess? :wink:
     
    #7 EvenMoreJesus, Dec 19, 2018
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  8. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Initiate (0) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    Never have had that happen, but I guess theoretically the melanoidins in Munich can result in furfurals being formed? I think kettle scorching is a more likely source for a lot of homebrewers.
     
    #8 GreenKrusty101, Dec 19, 2018
  9. epk

    epk Pundit (849) Jun 10, 2008 New Jersey

    Well I already have another 2 ounces of Citra on hand, I was just worried it would overpower the others if I used it at a larger ratio. Suppose I could also get another 2 ounces of Simcoe. Not sure I want to buy any more MB (it's the last unopened bag I bought from that 47Hops sale earlier this year and I just want to use the entire half pound in one shot and be done with it).
     
    #9 epk, Dec 19, 2018
  10. epk

    epk Pundit (849) Jun 10, 2008 New Jersey

    Cultural shift makes some sense but techniques always seem to change over time. The last IPA I did followed a more traditional schedule and had 17 total ounces (Bravo bittering with Azacca and Centennial) in a 11 gallon batch. I think it's pretty tasty, reminds me of Two Hearted as Centennial stole the show despite Azacca having the higher ratio - I swear a week or two ago I picked up a tropical note, but I'm just not getting it again.

    Still high compared to your Pliney clone, but nowhere near the rate some poeple like to use. Keep in mind, I'm more of a dry and bitter West Coast IPA guy. Juicy NEIPAs are great and all but to me they are like the desert beers of IPA hoppiness.
     
    #10 epk, Dec 19, 2018
  11. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    FWIW every "West Coast IPA" that I have ever brewed had kettle hop additions. Do you have Mitch Steele's IPA book? He provides clone recipes in Chapter 10 for beers like Blind Pig, FW Union Jack, Fat Head's Headhunter, - all three of these recipes calls for kettle hop additions.

    There is a recipe for Two Hearted on the AHA website and that calls for a kettle hop addition.

    Perhaps the above beers are now classified as being 'old school'?

    Cheers!
     
    #11 JackHorzempa, Dec 19, 2018
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  12. epk

    epk Pundit (849) Jun 10, 2008 New Jersey

    No, I do not. I'll look out for that book. I think I actually looked at the Two Hearted clone for reference when I was looking to combine with Azacca (though I settled on a different schedule - mine actually had a 15, 10, 5 along with WP and DH). All those beers have been around a long time now, suppose they are old school in a sense.

    EDIT: My bad, just realised I used "kettle hops" too generally in my first post, by the way. I was referring to anything added during the boil, and more specifically flavor/aroma addition, but maybe that isn't exactly right for that term. Makes more sense to me now why you specifically noted the 90, 45, and 30 min additions.
     
    #12 epk, Dec 19, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2018
  13. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    FWIW, that is how I use the term kettle hops (i.e., hops added during the boil for attributes other than the bittering addition at start of boil). In other words a hop added with 45, 30, 20, 15, 10, 5, 2 minutes of boiling time I would classify as kettle hops.

    While I attended the NHC 2013 there were a couple of presenters who were advocating that kettle hops are a 'waste' of hops. They were suggesting that hops solely be added beginning of boil, end of boil and dry hopping (if desired). I personally have not seen any 'science' which supported their advocacy and I personally have not made any changes in my brewing practice - I still kettle hop a lot.

    Cheers!
     
    #13 JackHorzempa, Dec 19, 2018
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  14. skleice

    skleice Maven (1,271) Aug 6, 2015 Connecticut

    I was planning on brewing this next week. The calculated IBUs are ~250, but the reviews and comments seem to say it's good.
     
    #14 skleice, Dec 19, 2018
  15. epk

    epk Pundit (849) Jun 10, 2008 New Jersey

    Okay, I'm not going crazy. That's how I always used the term as well but when you mentioned just the earlier additions in that Pliney clone it made me overthink it and google. Found How to Brew stating "Bittering hops, also known as kettle hops..." and thought maybe I had just been using the term wrong for years.
     
    #15 epk, Dec 19, 2018
  16. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    And maybe we are both using the term incorrectly? I have no clue who is the 'authority' for defining exactly what the term "kettle hops" mean. It is true that the bittering hop addition at the beginning of boil is being boiled in the kettle and thereby could be considered a kettle hop addition just like a hop added mid-boil.

    Perhaps a more universal definition for kettle hops is any hops that is added to the kettle and boiled? With this definition the bittering hop charge that is added at the beginning of the boil is a kettle hop and any other hops added (mid-boil, towards the end of boil) are kettle hops as well.

    Until fairly recently it was SOP to add some hops at the very beginning of boil for bittering. Needless to say but in contemporary brewing some brewers do not add any hops at the beginning of boil and there are some brewers who solely add hops at the end of boil (whirlpool) and dry hopping (so called "0 IBU" beers). These are indeed 'brave new times' when it comes to brewing/hopping schedules.

    FWIW I have always added hops at the beginning of boil and I have zero intentions to change that. I guess I am one of those 'old fogies'?

    Cheers!
     
    #16 JackHorzempa, Dec 19, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2018
  17. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    This is what Vinnie Cilurzo lists in his recipe sheet: “BU's - 90-95 (actual/not calculated)”.

    I enjoy this beer, it is not too bitter for my palate.

    Perhaps folks who are accustomed to Juicy/Hazy IPAs would spit it out for being too bitter!?!:stuck_out_tongue:

    Cheers!
     
    #17 JackHorzempa, Dec 19, 2018
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  18. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    250 calculated Tinseth IBUs will be more like 90 actual IBUs.
     
    #18 VikeMan, Dec 19, 2018
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  19. epk

    epk Pundit (849) Jun 10, 2008 New Jersey

    Some dead German, probably, and his definition is lost to time.
     
    #19 epk, Dec 19, 2018
  20. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Well, I don't speak German. No wonder I am confused!?!:grimacing:

    Did that fellow define Double Dry Hopping (DDH) perchance?:stuck_out_tongue:

    Cheers!
     
    #20 JackHorzempa, Dec 19, 2018
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