Must try summer lager styles.

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by lordofthemark, Jul 10, 2015.

Tags:
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. zid

    zid Grand Pooh-Bah (3,132) Feb 15, 2010 New York
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    Thanks. That's interesting. (and interesting that they put Marzen as a branch) Was "Vienna Style" common in the US before prohibition? If so, were US versions unique?
     
    KentT likes this.
  2. steveh

    steveh Grand Pooh-Bah (4,174) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois
    Society Pooh-Bah

    They may be referencing deeper into the history of Vienna and Amber Märzen as Dreher and Sedlmayr developed the styles simultaneously, but Dreher's beer was on tap first. Then again, there was no Amber lager before that, so the categorization is just a little skewed. :wink:
     
    zid likes this.
  3. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Below is something that jesskidden posted previously:

    “If Koch is to believed, Boston Lager's recipe is a tweaked version of his great-great grandfather Louis Koch's beer. Vienna style lagers, typically called "Wiener Beer", was a common part of many lager brewers' portfolio in the pre-Pro era, as well as the immediate post-Repeal era to a much lesser extent. So, SABL is not so much a modern American take on Vienna Lager but a revival of a pre-Pro US Wiener/Vienna beer.”

    http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/samuel-adams-boston-lager.196003/page-3#post-2614824

    Cheers!

    Edit: The word "Wiener" is the German word for Vienna.
     
    #23 JackHorzempa, Jul 10, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2015
  4. zid

    zid Grand Pooh-Bah (3,132) Feb 15, 2010 New York
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    Yes, I knew of the origin story, and @jesskidden 's post must have been buried in the back of my mind when I asked him the questions above. Was there anything unique to Wiener vs historical Vienna?
     
  5. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Was Louis Koch's beer that was brewed in St. Louis different from the Vienna Lagers brewed in Europe? I have no idea. Hopefully @jesskidden will have details on this.

    Cheers!
     
  6. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    @Crusader

    Patrik, do you have any details on how Anton Dreher brewed Vienna Lagers during the 1800's?

    Cheers!

    Jack
     
  7. lomeister

    lomeister Crusader (439) Jul 25, 2006 Massachusetts

    My wife and I did a flight at Devil's Backbone when we were down last summer, and much to our surprise we really liked the pear lager. Very light and refreshing and great for summer. Not too fruity or sweet.
     
  8. Crusader

    Crusader Pooh-Bah (1,725) Feb 4, 2011 Sweden
    Pooh-Bah

    Below is some copy pasted stuff about Dreher's beers, the first excerpt concerns the brewery in Klein Schwechater outside of Vienna, the others concerns his brewery in Pest (Budapest of modern day Hungary, then part of the Austrian-Hungarian empire):


    Some interesting notes by Carl Jacobsen (son of Carlsberg founder JC Jacobsen) from 1868 from his time at Klein Schwechater can be found here.

    The Märzen at 15% balling thus uses 613 grams of hops per HL.
    The Lager beer at 13% balling thus uses 466 grams of hops per HL.
    The Paris export beer thus uses 750 grams of hops per HL.

    Some notes from one of JC Jacobsen's letters (founder of Carlsberg), discussing brewing at Dreher's brewery in Steinbruch, in Budapest Hungary:


    Here's some excerpts from an article from "Der Bayerische Bierbrauer from 1871 written by a student of Weihenstephan (who practised at breweries in both Vienna and Pest for "several years") who has this to say about "The Vienna brewing method. In particular that followed by Mr Dreher in Steinbruch at Pest.":

     
    #28 Crusader, Jul 10, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2015
    JackHorzempa likes this.
  9. Himself

    Himself Initiate (0) May 20, 2014 Massachusetts

    Jack's Abbey Brewing in Framingham, MA
     
  10. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Patrik,

    Thanks for that information. Would the beers detailed as “Lager” and “lagerbier” be what we would call Vienna Lager beers today?

    Cheers!
     
  11. Ranbot

    Ranbot Pooh-Bah (2,463) Nov 27, 2006 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    The Sierra Nevada Summer Pack is a must try for lagers... Kellerweis, Nooner, and my [surprise] favorite Kolsh

    I second Anchor's California Lager.

    Sly Fox makes my favorite Helles and it's in their fun 360 can.
    [​IMG]
     
    Scrapss and JackHorzempa like this.
  12. Crusader

    Crusader Pooh-Bah (1,725) Feb 4, 2011 Sweden
    Pooh-Bah

    Yes, the Lagerbier/lager beer would be the type of beer which came to be known as Vienna lager or Wiener. The term lagerbier stemmed from the Bavarian division between lagerbier/summer beer and schenkbier/winter beer, in Austria the division became lagerbier and abzugbier, in Bohemia it was lagerbier and schenkbier (same as in Bavaria). Lagerbier was the higher gravity, lagered for longer, more strongly hopped type of beer compared with the schenk or abzug beer. It was the lagerbier variants of all three countries which became famous outside of their respective countries, which makes sense as they were the more premium products, and better suited for export purposes. It's interesting here to note that schenkbiere came to dominate beer sales in both Austria and Bohemia:

    Development of beer production by the 25 breweries located in Vienna and its surrounding administrative area between the years 1874-1881 divided into the original gravity of the wort produced (hectoliters).

    [​IMG]

    Similar table for the Austrian-Hungarian empire as a whole for the year 1881:

    [​IMG]
     
    #32 Crusader, Jul 10, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2015
    JimKal and JackHorzempa like this.
  13. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
    In Memoriam

    Modest correction: The name for Vienna is Wien. A Wiener Bier is a beer of/from Wien.
     
    #33 drtth, Jul 10, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2015
    JackHorzempa likes this.
  14. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    You are indeed correct. I meant to post: “Wiener is German for Viennese” but as you already know I did not do this properly.

    Cheers!
     
    drtth likes this.
  15. Crusader

    Crusader Pooh-Bah (1,725) Feb 4, 2011 Sweden
    Pooh-Bah

    In order to get a good idea of the difference between the different types of beer (abzug/lager/märzen) in an Austrian 19th century context this excerpt might also be of be interest:

    In the same issue of Der Bayerische Bierbrauer from 1871 referenced above there's a second article written by the author "L" (Lintner, the editor of the publication) under the heading "From our travel files" which describes the malting, brewing and fermenting process of one of Austria's "first" breweries.

    Of the beer being produced the author writes:

     
    Scrapss and JackHorzempa like this.
  16. jesskidden

    jesskidden Grand Pooh-Bah (3,145) Aug 10, 2005 New Jersey
    Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    I imagine that, like many other US-brewed German beer styles, the German-born/founded lager brewers in the US had a variety of recipes for their Wiener Beers - some all-malt, some w/adjunct, some using domestic malts labeled "Vienna" or some using other combinations of different roast types of malt, etc.

    Rahr Malting in 1934 recommended these specialty malts added to a brewers' standard lager recipe* for a "Vienna" style beer (per barrel):

    5 lbs - High Dried 3.0 Lovibond
    1 lb - Medium Caramel
    ½ lb - Dextrine malt
    * Wahl in the same post-Repeal era suggested using Pilsner malt for the base malt - and even suggested brewers could make a Vienna by simply blending their standard Pilsener beer with their Muenchener (Dark) lager.

    (I'm gettin' some heavy deja vu with this post - sorry if it's a repeat of info in that earlier, linked thread).
     
    Scrapss and zid like this.
  17. gonzo000

    gonzo000 Initiate (0) Feb 9, 2014 Massachusetts

    Modest correction: The name for Vienna is Wien. A Wiener Bier is a beer of/from Wein.
     
    #37 gonzo000, Jul 10, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2015
    steveh likes this.
  18. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Patrik, no good deed goes unpunished.

    Since you have done such an excellent job on how Vienna Lagers were brewed in Europe during the 1800’s your next assignment is: how were Vienna Lagers brewed in the US during the 1800’s?

    In particular, Louis Koch Lager Brewery operated in St. Louis between the 1860’s and the 1880’s and a beer was brewed there that was the inspiration for Sam Adams Boston Lager. How would that circa 1870 amber lager be brewed? Some specific questions:

    · Would the grain bill be 100% 2-row Vienna Malt (that is what we would call it today)?

    · Would a portion of the grain bill be crystal/caramel malt?

    · Would Louis Koch have used Saazer type hops?

    · Would the beer have the same specific gravities (original gravity/final gravity) as the European Vienna Lager beers?

    · Etc.

    Cheers!
     
  19. MUTINY

    MUTINY Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2015 Virginia

    Just another vote for Hacker-Pschorr Munich Gold.
     
  20. Kadonny

    Kadonny Pooh-Bah (2,616) Sep 5, 2007 Florida
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    So I was talking to a guy at Sly Fox the other week and asked him why they don't make more of their beers in the 360 can, you know what his response was? Because in many states the 360 can is banned because of littering laws. The top can be completely removed which "may" cause littering. If more beers were in that can, many of them would not be able to be sold in certain states. How sad is that.

    My moral to my story? The OP may not be able to get Helles in their state because of the can.
     
    Scrapss likes this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.