Must try summer lager styles.

Thanks. That's interesting. (and interesting that they put Marzen as a branch) Was "Vienna Style" common in the US before prohibition? If so, were US versions unique?

 

They may be referencing deeper into the history of Vienna and Amber Märzen as Dreher and Sedlmayr developed the styles simultaneously, but Dreher's beer was on tap first. Then again, there was no Amber lager before that, so the categorization is just a little skewed.

 

Below is something that jesskidden posted previously:

“If Koch is to believed, Boston Lager's recipe is a tweaked version of his great-great grandfather Louis Koch's beer. Vienna style lagers, typically called "Wiener Beer", was a common part of many lager brewers' portfolio in the pre-Pro era, as well as the immediate post-Repeal era to a much lesser extent. So, SABL is not so much a modern American take on Vienna Lager but a revival of a pre-Pro US Wiener/Vienna beer.”

http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/samuel-adams-boston-lager.196003/page-3#post-2614824

Cheers!

Edit: The word "Wiener" is the German word for Vienna.

 

Yes, I knew of the origin story, and @jesskidden 's post must have been buried in the back of my mind when I asked him the questions above. Was there anything unique to Wiener vs historical Vienna?

 

Was Louis Koch's beer that was brewed in St. Louis different from the Vienna Lagers brewed in Europe? I have no idea. Hopefully @jesskidden will have details on this.

Cheers!

 

@Crusader

Patrik, do you have any details on how Anton Dreher brewed Vienna Lagers during the 1800's?

Cheers!

Jack

 

My wife and I did a flight at Devil's Backbone when we were down last summer, and much to our surprise we really liked the pear lager. Very light and refreshing and great for summer. Not too fruity or sweet.

 

Below is some copy pasted stuff about Dreher's beers, the first excerpt concerns the brewery in Klein Schwechater outside of Vienna, the others concerns his brewery in Pest (Budapest of modern day Hungary, then part of the Austrian-Hungarian empire):


Some interesting notes by Carl Jacobsen (son of Carlsberg founder JC Jacobsen) from 1868 from his time at Klein Schwechater can be found here.

The Märzen at 15% balling thus uses 613 grams of hops per HL.
The Lager beer at 13% balling thus uses 466 grams of hops per HL.
The Paris export beer thus uses 750 grams of hops per HL.

Some notes from one of JC Jacobsen's letters (founder of Carlsberg), discussing brewing at Dreher's brewery in Steinbruch, in Budapest Hungary:

Here's some excerpts from an article from "Der Bayerische Bierbrauer from 1871 written by a student of Weihenstephan (who practised at breweries in both Vienna and Pest for "several years") who has this to say about "The Vienna brewing method. In particular that followed by Mr Dreher in Steinbruch at Pest.":

 

Jack's Abbey Brewing in Framingham, MA

 

Patrik,

Thanks for that information. Would the beers detailed as “Lager” and “lagerbier” be what we would call Vienna Lager beers today?

Cheers!

 

The Sierra Nevada Summer Pack is a must try for lagers... Kellerweis, Nooner, and my [surprise] favorite Kolsh

I second Anchor's California Lager.

Sly Fox makes my favorite Helles and it's in their fun 360 can.

 

Yes, the Lagerbier/lager beer would be the type of beer which came to be known as Vienna lager or Wiener. The term lagerbier stemmed from the Bavarian division between lagerbier/summer beer and schenkbier/winter beer, in Austria the division became lagerbier and abzugbier, in Bohemia it was lagerbier and schenkbier (same as in Bavaria). Lagerbier was the higher gravity, lagered for longer, more strongly hopped type of beer compared with the schenk or abzug beer. It was the lagerbier variants of all three countries which became famous outside of their respective countries, which makes sense as they were the more premium products, and better suited for export purposes. It's interesting here to note that schenkbiere came to dominate beer sales in both Austria and Bohemia:

Development of beer production by the 25 breweries located in Vienna and its surrounding administrative area between the years 1874-1881 divided into the original gravity of the wort produced (hectoliters).



Similar table for the Austrian-Hungarian empire as a whole for the year 1881:

 

Modest correction: The name for Vienna is Wien. A Wiener Bier is a beer of/from Wien.

 

You are indeed correct. I meant to post: “Wiener is German for Viennese” but as you already know I did not do this properly.

Cheers!

 

In order to get a good idea of the difference between the different types of beer (abzug/lager/märzen) in an Austrian 19th century context this excerpt might also be of be interest:

In the same issue of Der Bayerische Bierbrauer from 1871 referenced above there's a second article written by the author "L" (Lintner, the editor of the publication) under the heading "From our travel files" which describes the malting, brewing and fermenting process of one of Austria's "first" breweries.

Of the beer being produced the author writes:

 

I imagine that, like many other US-brewed German beer styles, the German-born/founded lager brewers in the US had a variety of recipes for their Wiener Beers - some all-malt, some w/adjunct, some using domestic malts labeled "Vienna" or some using other combinations of different roast types of malt, etc.

Rahr Malting in 1934 recommended these specialty malts added to a brewers' standard lager recipe* for a "Vienna" style beer (per barrel):

5 lbs - High Dried 3.0 Lovibond
1 lb - Medium Caramel
½ lb - Dextrine malt
​

* Wahl in the same post-Repeal era suggested using Pilsner malt for the base malt - and even suggested brewers could make a Vienna by simply blending their standard Pilsener beer with their Muenchener (Dark) lager.

(I'm gettin' some heavy deja vu with this post - sorry if it's a repeat of info in that earlier, linked thread).

 

Modest correction: The name for Vienna is Wien. A Wiener Bier is a beer of/from Wein.

 

Patrik, no good deed goes unpunished.

Since you have done such an excellent job on how Vienna Lagers were brewed in Europe during the 1800’s your next assignment is: how were Vienna Lagers brewed in the US during the 1800’s?

In particular, Louis Koch Lager Brewery operated in St. Louis between the 1860’s and the 1880’s and a beer was brewed there that was the inspiration for Sam Adams Boston Lager. How would that circa 1870 amber lager be brewed? Some specific questions:

· Would the grain bill be 100% 2-row Vienna Malt (that is what we would call it today)?

· Would a portion of the grain bill be crystal/caramel malt?

· Would Louis Koch have used Saazer type hops?

· Would the beer have the same specific gravities (original gravity/final gravity) as the European Vienna Lager beers?

· Etc.

Cheers!

 

Just another vote for Hacker-Pschorr Munich Gold.

 

So I was talking to a guy at Sly Fox the other week and asked him why they don't make more of their beers in the 360 can, you know what his response was? Because in many states the 360 can is banned because of littering laws. The top can be completely removed which "may" cause littering. If more beers were in that can, many of them would not be able to be sold in certain states. How sad is that.

My moral to my story? The OP may not be able to get Helles in their state because of the can.