My brewing so far and looking for help problem solving.

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by T10cleveland, Nov 16, 2015.

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  1. T10cleveland

    T10cleveland Initiate (0) Oct 14, 2015

    I am looking for direction and pointers. For some background I have listed my first 3 brews and then a detailed explanation of my 4th brew with questions:

    1st brew was the Caribou Slobber extract kit. This turned out WAY TOO sweet. I believe this is due to boiling too aggressively and pitching the yeast at too high of a temp. My neighbor likes it so it wasn't a total loss. I did not get a starting gravity on this batch as my hydrometer broke the first time I tried to use it.

    2nd brew was American Icon extract kit. This one turned out OK but I am not sure what it was supposed to turn out to be, got it free with a purchase. I would describe it as a White IPA but with less hops. I did not get a starting gravity on this batch either but it's totally drinkable. Hurray, I made beer that I would drink!

    3rd brew was a German Alt Ale extract kit. The OG should have been 1.052 but came in at 1.048, not sure why I missed the OG. This one is still fermenting at 62 degrees and I am hopeful!

    4th batch was brewed yesterday and has created quite a few questions. I brewed the Off The Topper extract kit and used Vermont Ale Yeast "The Yeast Bay". This was my first time using liquid yeast.

    I built a stir plate from a PC fan like the ones you see on the million youtube videos and put the yeast starter together at 7p on Sat night using Fast Pitch. I now understand where the term "caked on" comes from as I had to dig out the yeast of the vile with a sanitized butter knife. The room temp was about 62 degrees and Erlenmeyer flask was on the stir plate till 11p-ish when it was unplugged, my son thought it should be turned off before he went to bed. I put it back on in the morning around 7a and it went till about 7p, all the while the room temp was in the low to mid 60s.

    The brewing it's self went well with the exception of the last 15 mins. It took the wort 10-15 mins to return to boil after adding the 45 min malt extract and I didn't count this time in the 60 min cook time which added time to the brew. I wonder what kind of effect the additional 10-15 mins (was not boiling) had on the brew.

    After the flame out additions the wort cooled down to 180 quickly for the late addition of hops to steep for 15 mins. After that I retuned it to the ice water bath in the sink but it seemed to take quite a while to cool down to 80 degrees. Once it got down to 80 degrees I poured it into the 6 gal carboy with 2 gallons of room temperature water. The directions said to fill up to 6 gallons but I took a gravity reading once the total volume was at 5 gallons (maybe 4-1/2 after some evaporated during the boil) and it came in at 1.065. Now this is where I failed at simple math because my target OG was 1.070 and I thought it was a good idea to add another half gallon of water based on the instructions. I know.... I know. This put my starting gravity at 1.060, well below my target.

    But wait, it gets better...

    I missed the optimum temp of 70 degrees after adding cold water to the wort and pitched the yeast around 60-62 degrees. This morning the Carboy shows a temp of 68 degrees and there is a thin layer of kreuzen on top.

    I think the two biggest issues to address are hitting target OG and temperature for both the yeast starter and the fermentation stage.

    I think the temperature issue is pretty easy to address, I will turn on the heat.

    I would love to understand what I am doing incorrectly to miss my OG by so much. I was supposed to add another half to whole gallon of water which would have brought my OG down even further.

    Any feedback or guidance to get better results would be appreciated and well received.

    Thanks!

    Bobby
     
    #1 T10cleveland, Nov 16, 2015
  2. NeroFiddled

    NeroFiddled Grand High Pooh-Bah (7,276) Jul 8, 2002 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    Extract is damaged, oxidized material; and you can't change it's fermentability. You need to switch to all-grain (which is easy despite what everyone says, it just costs more for the equipment). You seem capable, and on the right track. Why your extract brews are turning out low in gravity???? I don't know. Perhaps you're measuring volumes incorrectly; or your saccharometer could be off. I'd suggest being more careful with adding water - add half and then measure before adding the rest. Hitting the proper temperature for fermentation without a heat exchanger is always an issue - better cooler than higher though.
     
    #2 NeroFiddled, Nov 16, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2015
  3. T10cleveland

    T10cleveland Initiate (0) Oct 14, 2015

    Thanks!

    I does seem pretty strait forward and I plan to switch to switch once I get the basics handled. I figure not achiving something as simple as the OG says I'm not ready to take that step yet but based on my progress I imaging it will happen by spring.
     
    #3 T10cleveland, Nov 16, 2015
  4. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    The extra time in the kettle (even not boiling) would have resulted in additional isomerization of alpha acids from the hops, so a little more bitterness. Which may be a good thing, since you were doing a partial boil, which in itself reduces isomerization.

    It's hard to miss your OG with an extract kit, unless the recipe is bad. If you ended up with the volume of wort that the recipe calls for after topping off, it's more than likely fine. Chances are you measured the gravity without thoroughly mixing the wort and the top off water. It's probably the most common new brewer mistake. But it doesn't hurt anything unless you try to "fix" it by adding more fermentables.

    I wouldn't call 70F an optimum pitching temp for most yeast strains. Pitching in the low/mid-60's is about right. And 68F sounds like about the highest temperature you'd want to hit for this beer. So rather than warming it up, you may want to look into keeping it from rising any higher.
     
    #4 VikeMan, Nov 16, 2015
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  5. PortLargo

    PortLargo Pooh-Bah (1,831) Oct 19, 2012 Florida
    Pooh-Bah

    My suggestion is to divert some of your concern over missing your OG to understanding yeast starters and fermentation temps.

    Here are two pretty good articles on computing pitching rates and making starters:
    http://www.mrmalty.com/article.php

    From your description, your first brew was too sweet because it was under-attenuated, i.e. not enough yeast to finish the job. I recommend you compute how many cells are required and let that be the goal of the yeast starter . . . you really want to measure this just like you do water/grain/hops. Computing yeast quantity is easy if you use Vikeman's Brewcipher or http://yeastcalculator.com/

    Ferm temp is a major player also. Cooling the wort to the proper temp and maintaining that temp throughout fermentation pays big dividends. The saying is brewers make the wort and yeast make the beer . . . you really are working for those little buggers.

    BTW, the white noise of a stir plate motor compliments a good night's sleep . . .
     
    #5 PortLargo, Nov 16, 2015
  6. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Obtaining an accurate OG reading while brewing partial boil requires that you properly mix the water and wort together. One way to optimize this mixing is to add the water to the fermenter first and vigorously port the chilled wort into the water.

    Cheers!
     
    #6 JackHorzempa, Nov 16, 2015
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  7. T10cleveland

    T10cleveland Initiate (0) Oct 14, 2015

    Thank you very much for all the great advice!

    I have responded to everyone below but have one more general question. Do recipes account for the water that evaporates during the 60 min boil? Seems like it takes 5 1/4 - 5 1/2 gallons of water to make a 5 gallon batch. Should I limit my water additions to 5 gallons or should the carboy be filled to 5 gallons resulting in a total of 5 1/4 - 5 1/2?

    After digging into it I think this was half the problem. The other half may have been a cluster of bubbles under the hydrometer adding buoyancy. I lifted the hydrometer out and slowly lowered it back in and it was off by .003 but I didn't see any bubbles. I have repeated this a few times now and it looks like it will give a variety of readings (.003 - .001) depending on which side of the hydrometer test jar it leans towards. This was very educational.

    I was going by the directions from the yeast company. Seems strange for a beginner that the brewing supply store and yeast manufacturer say one thing (higher temps) and everything I read from home brewers (lower temps) say something else. It's hard to believe either side of the advice would be directly wrong. Perhaps there is a piece I am misunderstanding.

    That was an excellent read!

    That's my next purchase. Haven't decided on what style of wort chiller to invest in but I want to get one that will transition over into larger all grain batches well because I can already see where this is going.

    Sure does! I blame the stir plate for me falling asleep early. :-)

    That's a good idea!
     
    #7 T10cleveland, Nov 17, 2015
  8. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Generally, a 5 gallon recipe means 5 gallons into the carboy or (sometimes) 5 packaged gallons. Hopefully reading the recipe will give you the right context. Everyone's boil-off rate will be different, but generally you can count on at least a gallon of boil-off in an hour, until you have dialed it in and know exactly what to expect.

    High temperatures early on can lead to off flavors, i.e. higher than normal esters, and sometimes fusel alcohols. Those particular instructions on the package (to pitch higher and then bring the temperature down later) are designed to get your fermentation off to a fast start, but then reduce the temperature before the future ester/fusel profile has been locked in. It cuts down on the number of new brewers asking "I pitched my yeast 12 hours ago and I don't see any bubbles in the airlock. Is my beer ruined?" The disadvantage is that new brewers are also the least likely people to know exactly when to reduce the temperature, or to even have the ready means to do so. ~99% of experienced brewers will tell you to pitch low and ramp up.

    Brewers are expert at making beer. Yeast manufacturers are expert at making yeast. Brewing supply stores are very often staffed with idjits. I'm oversimplifying, but only slightly.
     
    #8 VikeMan, Nov 17, 2015
  9. Tebuken

    Tebuken Initiate (0) Jun 6, 2009 Argentina

    The problem when you pitch your yeast at a bit high temp. and your room temp. is more or less steady is that fermentation will raise even a bit more the green-beer temperature, thus it is not easy to low down fermentation temperature to the proper range.
     
    #9 Tebuken, Nov 17, 2015
  10. T10cleveland

    T10cleveland Initiate (0) Oct 14, 2015

    Thank you!
     
    #10 T10cleveland, Nov 18, 2015
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