Hi, I recently purchased a dual burner setup for boiling maple sap, but I'm not getting a decent flame at all - hoping someone here has experience / advice with NG setups. Here's what I bought: http://www.homebrewing.org/2-Burner-System-14-Burner-Stands-200000-BTU_p_2624.html I also bought orifices to convert them to NG since I have a quick-connect gas outlet on my back deck. I had a plumber install the quick-connect outlet - I think he ran 3/8 black pipe off the main line to my furnace to the outlet. From there, I have a standard 3/8 flexible gas hose running through a gas ball valve and the NG orifice directly into the burner. When I light it, I only get a very moderate 1" flame, like what you'd see on a typical gas kitchen stove. I made sure all of the gas valves are wide open. There aren't any regulators, just normal gas ball valves. My understanding is that NG is regulated at the meter on the side of the house (I heat my home with NG). Previous years, I've run my burner off propane and I get a huge jet flame. Since converting to NG I get nothing like that at all: These burners are supposed to be 200k BTU each. Any suggestions?
I can't answer your question, but there was a thread a few months ago that asked a question that was similar to your's, so here is a list of the results of a search using the word 'burner' as the search word in thread titles only Browse thru them to see if you can get some help. http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/search/32122076/?q=burner&o=date&c[title_only]=1&c[node]=8
I'm not sure you are going to get 200K btu after swapping over to NG. @mikehartigan has a NG system and is a DIY kinda guy. I'm sure he'll have some ideas.
No idea about your specific burner. But, propane is usually a much higher pressure than NG so if you are using the same burner for both types of gas, I don't think you will end up with the same size flames. Have you tried boiling water with the NG?
No, I threw all the hoses and fittings together last night just to see how well the burner worked, but I haven't test boiled yet. I'm waiting to pick up some proper gas teflon tape and dope before I start any lengthy tests. I understand there's a difference between gas and propane (btus and pressure, but am not interested in starting that scientific debate ), but I expected more of a flame than what I showed in my picture above. I have a propane shop heater that throws a huge jet flame, but the flame on this NG burner is so anemic that I can't see how one could ever run a gas grill off one of these lines (which is also part of my long-term plans). It really makes me think that something isn't plumbed correctly, but all of the gas pipes are exposed in my basement and I can see that all the shutoff valves are wide open. @Mothergoose03 - thanks, I'm reading through some of those posts now...
I don't know the numbers, but 3/8" line/hose may have trouble delivering 200K BTU. My burner has been called 100K BTU, but I don't know if that's accurate (I got no spec sheet with it). I use 1/2" gas line and 1/2" hose connected to the QD, which also serves the grill (I can't cook and brew at the same time, but I'll fix that eventually.). My flame will easily rise 3' or more. This is not my video, but it's the same burner I use. That's about what mine will do (I love this video!)
Yeah, I've seen this video before. I'm not saying that I expect my burner to work that well or put out 200k BTU, especially if I'm using a 3/8" line, but I really expected more than what I'm seeing in my first post there. I was really hoping someone with a similar burner / setup could confirm if what I'm seeing it to be expected or if there's something fundamentally wrong with my setup. I haven't gotten the chance to experiment more with it since my first post.
How long a run was that piece of 3/8" pipe? If it was longer than 5', you could have a problem I use a 3/4" line with a wok burner (for 10 gal. batches). Orfices are built into burner itself (nozzles) with no regulator required other than the one next to your house meter (like you said). cheers
There's a 1/2" branch of black pipe off the main line that runs probably 8' to the QC box on the outside of the house and from there I have a 12' flexible 3/8" gas grill line to the burner. I told the plumber that I was looking for a QC outlet so I could (eventually) run a NG grill. I don't see how this setup would even come close to working - again, the burner is putting out a flame comparable to what you'd see on a normal kitchen stove - maybe a little bigger.
Only thing I can suggest at this point, is maybe shorten the flex line and increase the ID to 1/2" (if possible). Other option is to try another burner style without regulator/orfice. Hopefully plumber left a "T" plug fitting/union where he branched off so you can test a shorter/bigger run. Plumbers are not familiar a lot of times with NG appliance consumption...other than heaters, dryers, and kitchen stoves. Good luck...I love my NG setup
Well, figuring I had nothing to lose, I decided to drill a larger hole in the NG orifice (but left everything else the same). It actually improved the burner quite a bit. I don't have a way of measuring the original orifice because all of my small drill bits are broken, but it's pretty small - I'd guess 1/32". I drilled it out with a 1/16" bit and now the flame on the burner is easily 5-6" high. According to this page, a 1/16" orifice would only deliver 10k-15k btu depending on the pressure I'm getting at my house: http://www.joppaglass.com/burner/lowp_chrt.html Wondering if I should open the orifice more with an 1/8" bit. Thoughts?
Before opening it up more, I would see how well it does at boiling 5 gallons of water. You may be fine with what you have.
Hard to tell, but does this burner system have any adjustment of some sort for the air/fuel mixing? Or just a ball valve for the gas flow? Is it possible you are running too lean (excess air) resulting in shorter flame and lower btu's? I engineer industrial burners for a living, but will admit I am not sure how these types of burners operate in regards to the air/fuel mixing and metering as I don't use one. For the (nozzle mix) burners I work with that use both propane and natural gas, there are no actual changes with the burner itself usually, but the gas is metered differently so there is less gas flow into the burner since the btu per cubic foot of propane is higher... Usually the only difference... Since flow is dictated by a pressure drop across an orifice, natural gas would have a higher upstream pressure to the orifice plate, resulting in more flow. If you have a proper NG orifice installed on your line, you need to make sure your pressure is high enough to get the proper flow for that orifice. Do they give any information with the burner about the pressure requirements and such? From the information you have given, I think your supply pressure just isn't high enough.
+1. You can always drill it bigger if it still doesn't get the job done, but drill bits to make the hole smaller in case you overshoot it are really hard to find. Previously, you were in a 'nothing to lose' state. That may not be the case, now.
I couldn't resist - I opened it to 3/32". More gas == more fire Just ran a test boil: 5 gallons of water starting at 55F outside air temp: 55F windy turkey fryer (so it's a tall pot with sides exposed to the wind) Took just about an hour to get the covered pot to boil. That's probably good enough to pre-heat my sap, but I don't think it would be a time efficient way of making syrup. You really need to keep a rolling boil for hours and hours because you're constantly adding cold sap into the mix. I don't think the setup as-is would handle that. I don't actually boil sap on an exposed pot - I have a couple of 5 gallon stainless kitchen pans that I hang inside of a stack of cinder blocks, so wind and pot exposure aren't much of an issue. I'm sure the burner would perform much better in those circumstances. For now, I guess I'll run the burners on propane until I get the NG setup dialled in. I appreciate all the info/suggestions!
It does. This isn't the exact same burner I have, but it has the same adjustment mechanism: http://www.amazon.com/Bayou-Classics-High-Pressure-Burner/dp/B001DIFONQ There's a dial on the back of the burner that you can open/close to alter the air mix. Could be. I'm working with a normal NG home supply, but I don't actually know what the pressure is after the meter. What I can tell you is that before I drilled out the orifice, I was getting a flame exactly like what you see on a normal stove-top burner in the kitchen. After I drilled the orifice, the flame is more ..... candle-like. Not exactly sure how to describe it, but it definitely isn't jet-like when I run on propane. I understand that NG is delivered at a lower pressure, so perhaps that's the difference, but it definitely isn't like the "23-tip NG jet burner" video above (but that's not the kind of burner I have either). In that 23-tip burner, there is no orifice on the supply line - each jet nozzle has it's own orifice.
Quick update: I bought another 12' flexible gas grill line and all the fittings for a second burner. I drilled out the orifice to match the other one. I was getting a totally acceptable boil running a single burner on a 5gal pan. When I added the second burner at the same time with a second 5gal pan, it was just barely an acceptable boil, but it was a windy day. Once I stacked cinder blocks around the burners to break the wind, it worked much better. Now that it is all working, the NG setup is so much more convenient than propane. All the lines have quick-connect fittings, don't have to deal with the tank freezing or running out, the burners are much quieter...
