Need a starter?

There is some risk, but I wouldn't lose sleep over it. BTW, I'd recommend not using an airlock for starters. A sanitized piece of foil, loosely crimped over the flask's opening is much easier and will allow more oxygen into your starter wort. For a starter, this is a good thing.

 

I was going to mention that NO, you don't need a starter. What happened to you is a prime example why you shouldn't make a starter if you don't need to. It's heavily debated, but I believe making a starter is just another factor that could cause an infection in the beer. Chances are, you will be fine, but a day is a long time to be exposed to open air. An infection is quite possible, considering the starter is very low ABV.

I have made a beer with OG of 1.074 without making a starter and hit my final gravity. I usually only do starters for beers that will be imperial level, though it is good practice to make a starter for beers over 1.060. Some people will say 1.040... I really don't get it though.

 

You should always make a starter. Why anyone wants to pitch yeast that isn't ready for the job is beyond me. Since you have WYeast all that you have to do is smack the nutrient packet and you've made a starter. With White Labs you need to go through the longer process. If you want to make wort for a starter and not propagate you pitch a high inoculation rate and not aerate.

If you're asking if you need to propagate the yeast, that's a personal choice. In the scenario that you presented I would. Another factor that you didn't mention is if you aerate or oxygenate and your method.

 

The ‘standard’ definition of a yeast starter is to make a small amount of wort (e.g., 1-2 liters) and pitch the liquid yeast into the wort in order to propagate. A typical timeframe for the propagation is 24 hours or so.

Smacking a Wyeast smack pack is not making a starter; there is very little yeast growth when you open the small nutrient packets. Smacking the smack pack basically ‘wakes up’ the yeast:

From the Wyeast website:

“2. Can I use an Activator package without activating it and waiting for it to swell? ?

Yes. An Activator pack has enough yeast in it to pitch 5 gallons whether it is activated or not. There will only be a slightly longer lag time if the package is not activated before use. In any case, the nutrient pack should be popped before using because it contains valuable nutrients. Typically, the Activator can be activated when you start your brew and will be swollen by the time your wort is cool

3. Does the package need to be fully swollen before pitching?

No, The package can be pitched before activating, or at anytime during the activation process. The activation process "jump starts" the culture's metabolism, minimizing the lag phase.

4. Does the cell count increase when the package is activated?

The cell count does not increase significantly when the package is activated.. The smack-pack is not designed to dramatically increase the cell count, it simply “activates” the yeast metabolism.”

Cheers!


P.S. Wyeast provides instructions on how to make a yeast starter here: http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_makingastarter.cfm

 

Yes I know that the Wyeast starter does not propagate. That is why it was in the non-propagating paragraph. But if that point wasn't apparent, thanks for pointing that out.

And I don't accept the new standard definition of a starter. Why?

I look more towards the historical, pro-brewer application and dry yeast definition.

Just like any old recipe for bread, yogurt, etc. calls for a yeast starter. Their starters did not propagate. I've talked to some brewers (mostly in Europe) about cell count. In general they pitch a volume of yeast. Before they pitch it often some wort is added to start the yeast. No propagation here. And I do believe that re-hydrated dry yeast is considered a starter.

So basically I'm sure that we both know what each other is talking about. Let not get wrapped around the axle with semantics but help people. Was there really anything that fundamentally wrong with what I said? It is just as important to pitch yeast that hasn't been in survival mode and is ready to reproduce as it is to look to cell count. Some people believe that brewing begins when the yeast is pitched. Given the context of who said it, it makes sense. But even if you disagree it's not hard to disagree that the importance of fermentation is much over-looked.

 

“And I don't accept the new standard definition of a starter.” You explained your position here but the vast majority of homebrewers utilize the terminology of yeast starter meaning a propagation step. I certainly do not want to change your personal perspective on this matter but it does introduce ‘confusion’ in terms of discussing this topic with others.

“Was there really anything that fundamentally wrong with what I said?” There was when there was confusion about the statement of “You should always make a starter” but now that I have an understanding of your personal perspective on this topic that mitigates things. I will just point out that Wyeast states: “3. Does the package need to be fully swollen before pitching? No, the package can be pitched before activating, or at anytime during the activation process.” I personally always smack the pack prior to pitching (whether directly to the primary or to a starter vessel) as a means of confirming that I have healthy yeast. It provides me with peace of mind. As Wyeast stated there is no absolute need to smack the pack (make a starter in your parlance) but I would agree with you that this is a good practice.

Cheers!

 

Make a starter, then save a little bit of the starter in a bottle. use your bottled bit to start a new starter!

 

Making starters is part of brewing...if you don't want to make starters...use a quality dry yeast.

IMHO...FMPE (from my practical experience)

 

The premise (which I agree with) is that there is (in general) an optimal yeast cell pitch rate, expressed like this...

X x Y x Z

Where:
X = Cells per ml of wort per degree plato
Y = milliliters of wort
Z = degrees plato

If you can agree to the premise that there's some approximately ideal pitch rate, then it simply becomes a question of what that rate is. Calculators such as Mr. Malty use an ale pitch rate of 0.75 million cells per ml of wort per degree plato. This calculation results in an answer that you ideally need starters for most 5 gallon batches, including many that are far less than 1.060 OG. And the size of the starter depends on the OG. The idea that you don't ideally need a starter for worts up to 1.060 is based on a much lower pitch rate assumption. I believe the 1.060 number really stems from yeast manufacturer's desires to sell yeast and make the process sound easy. They know that a 'no starter' pitch in a 1.060 wort will certainly make beer. Maybe even good beer. But the best possible beer? Not IMO. And the idea (as some might claim) that there's some magic OG number above which you need a starter of some constant size (e.g. 1 Liter), regardless of how far above 1.060 (for example) the wort is, is just silly, and ignores the whole concept of pitch rates.

 

“Calculators such as Mr. Malty use an ale pitch rate of 0.75 million cells per ml of wort per degree plato.” It is indeed true that the yeast calculator on the Mr. Malty website is based upon the George Fix assumption of 0.75 million cells/ml/°Plato.

The proper number of yeast cells to pitch was discussed in a past thread:

“Pitching rate calculators like the one on Mr. Malty is predicated upon the assumption that you need 0.75 million cells/ml/° Plato (the George Fix assumption). So for an OG = 1.060 (14.7° Plato) and using a 5.25 gallon batch (Mr. Malty default) you would need

0.75 x 19.9 (liters) x 14.7 = 219 billion cells.

So, how ‘valid’ is the George Fix assumption of 0.75 million/cells/° Plato?

Permit me to present an alternative viewpoint. From the Wyeast website:

“6. Do I need to make a starter for an Activator?

No. The Activator is designed to deliver professional pitch rates (6 million cells/ ml.) when directly added to 5 gallons of wort. ( <1.060 at 70 degrees). However, if a package is slow to swell, suspected of being mishandled, or if the date is approaching the six month shelf life it is a good idea to build the culture up with a starter. High gravity or low temperature fermentations require higher pitch rates. This can be achieved with inoculating with additional packages or making a starter.”

What is the equivalent pitch rate in units of cells/ml/° Plato that Wyeast would recommend (professional pitch rate)?

The value of 6 million cells/ml above already accounts for the typical homebrew volume of 5 gallons. So all we need to account for is degrees Plato. For the upper limit of OG = 1.060 (14.7° Plato) all we need to do is divide by 14.7:

6 million cells/ml ÷ 14.7 = 0.41 million cells/ml/° Plato.

So, Wyeast is of the opinion that a professional pitching rate for a 14.7° Plato beer is less than the George Fix assumed value of 0.75.

So, who should we as homebrewers believe? Is George Fix ‘right’? Is the professional pitching rate that Wyeast espouses ‘right’?

Each homebrewer needs to decide for themselves. My homebrewing experience has shown to me that the Wyeast values ‘work’ for me.

Cheers!”

 

Many brewers prefer to rely on experience for an authoritative answer. If I can brew consistently great beers with dry yeast or with a single vial of liquid without a starter, then that's what I'm going to do. Why would I put extra effort into fixing something that's not broken?

As to definitions, smacking an activator does not make a starter, nor does rehydrating dry yeast. if you want to have a conversation without having to define your terms every time you use them, then stick with the common meanings.

Just my $.02.

 

It's interesting that you claim the Wyeast pitch rate works for you, yet you do not use a pitch rate at all. IIRC, you use a formula that says "no starter for worts below 1.060 OG" and "1.5L starter for worts above 1.060." See? No rate. Doesn't make sense, unless you believe there is something magical about 1.060, with yeast behaving in a binary fashion. One behavior below 1.060 and one behavior above.

 

To quote a wise man (mikehartigan): “Many brewers prefer to rely on experience for an authoritative answer.”

Cheers!

 

Wise men espouse pitch rates that they do not use? Ok, I get it now.

Edit: this was not directed at mikehartigan, and I don't mean to imply that he himself is doing this.

 

Okay, I'll say this and shut up. Common meaning on this board, I get it. But there is a world outside of Homebrewing.

I see no where are they talking about propagation, they are talking about slurries:

http://www.probrewer.com/resources/library/bp-healthyyeast.php

The best thing to do for yeast after it has been stored for two weeks, if it tests clean, is to add some fresh wort before using it. This helps to restore yeast strength and ensures a successful fermentation. Simply pour off beer that has separated from flocculated yeast, add fresh wort at 9° to 12° Plato, and let it sit at room temperature for 10 to 20 hours. Assuming yeast activity was evident in this "starter" or "activator," pitch into fresh wort as usual. This is also useful for slurries that are 55 percent to 90 percent viable; this method can "nurse" the slurry back to health.

 

Agreed. I have even just sprinkled in dry yeast and made excellent beer. It's all up to the brewer. If I hit my target final gravity, I'm confident that I am pitching enough yeast.

I also won't disagree that making a starter will result in a better beer, but I haven't brewed enough to recognize this.

 

It's not just about hitting your final gravity, pitching rates also impact the levels of various flavor compounds in the beer (esters, diacetyl, acetaldehyde, fusels, etc).

 

...in the same sense that changing the oil in your car every 500 miles is better than every 3,000, but most people don't bother. The problem with yeast is that there are too many 'experts' on this subject. The manufacturers say that one vial/packet/sachet is enough for a 5 gallon batch, for example, while Mr Malty says it takes 5 (I consulted it recently before I brewed a German Pilsner. Mr Malty said 7.1 vials would be needed if I didn't make a starter). Both know a thing or two about yeast. We have to fall back on experience to tell us that reality is somewhere in the middle (my experience tells me that the manufacturers are closer to reality than Mr Malty). I think it's safe to say that more yeast is always safer, but not necessarily better. Generally speaking, it won't hurt, though some styles rely on the esters produced by stressing the yeast.

 

“We have to fall back on experience to tell us that reality is somewhere in the middle (my experience tells me that the manufacturers are closer to reality than Mr Malty).”

I agree 100%.

Cheers!