Need some help with my hoppy beers

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by MarkF150, Apr 25, 2014.

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  1. MarkF150

    MarkF150 Zealot (675) Feb 9, 2009 Massachusetts

    I need some help with my hoppy beers. I brew 5 gallon AG batches. I have my process down pretty good, pitch enough healthy yeast, control fermentation temp, and package into a CO2 flushed keg, but all of my hoppy beers are a muddled mess. It doesn't matter if I use a single hop or a combo of hops, hop burst or steep and whirlpool, dry hop, it doesn't matter, I don't get the fresh hop flavor and aroma you get from good commercial examples. I have been prepping all my brewing water the day before and treating it with campden to remove the chlorine and on brew day I add salts. My base water looks like this:

    Na - 34
    Ca - 8
    Mg - 2
    CaCO3 - 28
    SO4 - 18
    Cl - 47

    The last IPA I brewed adding Gypsum and Epsom Salt was:

    Na - 30
    Ca - 172
    Mg - 8
    SO4 - 445
    Cl - 42
    5ml Lactic Acid to adjust mash PH, was shooting for 5.2, actual mash PH was 5.3

    I understand the SO4 is a little high, but I have been playing around with it the past few batches seeing if it made a difference.

    What am I doing wrong, or what do I need to do to get the crisp, fresh hop flavor and aroma I desire in my hoppy beers?
     
    #1 MarkF150, Apr 25, 2014
  2. FATC1TY

    FATC1TY Pooh-Bah (2,564) Feb 12, 2012 Georgia
    Pooh-Bah

    What does your typical hop bill look like?
     
    #2 FATC1TY, Apr 25, 2014
  3. MarkF150

    MarkF150 Zealot (675) Feb 9, 2009 Massachusetts

    Here is the recipe of the last IPA

    Recipe Specifications
    --------------------------
    Boil Size: 7.50 gal
    Post Boil Volume: 6.00 gal
    Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
    Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal
    Estimated OG: 1.068 SG
    Estimated Color: 8.7 SRM
    Estimated IBU: 89.5 IBUs
    Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.00 %
    Est Mash Efficiency: 87.9 %
    Boil Time: 90 Minutes

    Ingredients:
    ------------
    Amt Name Type # %/IBU
    11.00 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 mins Water Agent 1 -
    1.00 g Epsom Salt (MgSO4) (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 2 -
    6 lbs 4.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 3 50.0 %
    3 lbs 2.0 oz Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 4 25.0 %
    12.0 oz Carahell (Weyermann) (13.0 SRM) Grain 5 6.0 %
    12.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 6 6.0 %
    12.0 oz Wheat, Flaked (1.6 SRM) Grain 7 6.0 %
    4.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 8 2.0 %
    0.50 oz Centennial [3.50 %] - Mash 60.0 min Hop 9 1.0 IBUs
    10.0 oz Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 SRM) Sugar 10 5.0 %
    0.25 oz HopShot [61.10 %] - Boil 90.0 min Hop 11 49.5 IBUs
    13.80 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Boil 90.0 mins Water Agent 12 -
    1.30 g Epsom Salt (MgSO4) (Boil 90.0 mins) Water Agent 13 -
    0.50 oz Centennial [3.50 %] - Boil 45.0 min Hop 14 4.9 IBUs
    0.20 oz Citra [12.50 %] - Boil 45.0 min Hop 15 7.0 IBUs
    0.50 oz Centennial [3.50 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 16 4.1 IBUs
    0.20 oz Citra [12.50 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 17 5.8 IBUs
    1.25 oz Centennial [3.50 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 3 Hop 18 5.1 IBUs
    0.70 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 Hop 19 10.6 IBUs
    0.25 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [5.30 %] - Steep/Whi Hop 20 1.5 IBUs
    1.0 pkg American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) [124.21 Yeast 21 -


    Mash Schedule: Temperature Mash, 1 Step, Medium Body
    Total Grain Weight: 12 lbs 8.0 oz
    ----------------------------
    Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
    Saccharification Add 16.00 qt of water at 162.2 F 151.0 F 60 min
    Mash Out Heat to 168.0 F over 10 min 168.0 F 10 min

    Sparge: Fly sparge with 4.93 gal water at 168.0 F
    Notes:
    ------
    CO2 Hop Extract used was 61.1% AA. 5ml for 50 IBU's

    Subbed C10 for CaraHell

    Fermented at 66*
     
    #3 MarkF150, Apr 25, 2014
  4. psnydez86

    psnydez86 Initiate (0) Jan 4, 2012 Pennsylvania

    No dry hop?? You have a lot of 45 minute and 30 minute additions which will basically just add bitterness. I would try to shoot for 40-60 ibu in your 60 minute addition then load up on your Citra/centennial/Columbus/Simcoe from 10 minutes to 0 minutes. Then dry hop with 2-4 oz for 5-7 days. IMO you can't get that fresh hop nose without dry hopping.
     
    #4 psnydez86, Apr 25, 2014
    nickfl and nkelley77 like this.
  5. MarkF150

    MarkF150 Zealot (675) Feb 9, 2009 Massachusetts


    I forgot to put it in there, but I dry hopped with 1 oz each of Centennial, Citra, & Simcoe for 7 days.

    Also, this recipe is based off of the Head Hunter clone from Mitch Steeles book, so I was not going to mess with the hop schedule since its a proven beer.
     
    #5 MarkF150, Apr 25, 2014
  6. FATC1TY

    FATC1TY Pooh-Bah (2,564) Feb 12, 2012 Georgia
    Pooh-Bah

    Your grist looks a little muddled to me for an IPA.

    With all the cystal malts, and even some MO in there, it's a bit of a mix, especially with the sugar trying to dry it out.

    Why so much gypsum?
     
    #6 FATC1TY, Apr 25, 2014
  7. MarkF150

    MarkF150 Zealot (675) Feb 9, 2009 Massachusetts

    As I said, this is the recipe from Mitch Steeles book for Head Hunter from Matt Cole.

    All of the gypsum is there to get me to where in the book he calls for somewhere around 375 SO4. I bumped it up a little bit to see what would happen because I used the 375 amount in an IPA before that came out the same way.
     
    #7 MarkF150, Apr 25, 2014
  8. psnydez86

    psnydez86 Initiate (0) Jan 4, 2012 Pennsylvania

    I agree with @FATC1TY. Lots of crystal going on and that's a **** load of gypsum. Don't know if your using a spreadsheet like bru n water/ez water/ brewcipher for your additions but I've never had to add more than 4-6 grams gypsum TOTAL and that was building up from distilled water. Your so4:chloride ratio is 10:1 That seems quite extreme.
     
    #8 psnydez86, Apr 25, 2014
  9. MarkF150

    MarkF150 Zealot (675) Feb 9, 2009 Massachusetts

    I use ez water. Here is the sheet for that day

    Starting Water (ppm):
    Ca: 8

    Mg:2

    Na:34

    Cl:47

    SO4:18

    HCO3:9


    Mash / Sparge Vol (gal):

    4/5

    RO or distilled %:

    0%/25%


    Total Grain (lb):

    11.6


    Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
    CaSO4:11/13.8

    CaCl2: 0/0


    MgSO4:1/1.3

    NaHCO3:0/0

    CaCO3:0/0

    Lactic Acid (ml):5

    Sauermalz (oz):0


    Mash Water / Total water (ppm):


    Ca:171/172

    Mg:8/8

    Na:26/30

    Cl:35/42

    SO4:445/447

    Cl to SO4 Ratio:0.08/0.09
     
    #9 MarkF150, Apr 25, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2014
  10. psnydez86

    psnydez86 Initiate (0) Jan 4, 2012 Pennsylvania

    I would try to rebrew the recipe with adding some CaCl to get that ratio closer to even and cut way back on your gypsum. Hopefully some of the other water guys chime in. @VikeMan @mattbk @utahbeerdude
     
    #10 psnydez86, Apr 25, 2014
  11. FATC1TY

    FATC1TY Pooh-Bah (2,564) Feb 12, 2012 Georgia
    Pooh-Bah

    One thing to note, MOST of the commercial beers, will have a low-ish finishing gravity, and they won't be blown out with more than a couple hop varieties. Not always the case, and not always the schedule, as there are plenty of beers with boat loads of hops, early and late, and with other things going on that are world class.

    However, I've found my own IPA's to be muddled. Especially as of late, and I've gotten lazy with water and ph levels. I think if you get a pH of your mash out of whack, you will have a muddled mess no matter how good your hop bill and grain bill is.

    Regardless, that grist, being from a book and proven, seemed muddled to me as is. It's a bit heavy handed for a hop forward beer. While the commercial guys can pack in the hops, we can't get the same extraction they can, so there's always the difference in what they break it down bbl wise to our scale, that doesn't always translate.
     
    #11 FATC1TY, Apr 25, 2014
  12. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    That is a boatload of SO4. But I'm not sure that it should be detrimental to hop flavor/aroma. I can see it causing a harsh perceived bitterness. Could that overwhelm flavor/aroma? Mmmmmaybe. If it were the problem, I would cut back on the gypsum/SO4 rather than trying to balance with more CaCl.

    OP: Where do you get your hops and how are they packaged and stored? Also, I can think of no good reason to add epsom salts for an IPA. I don't think it's causing your particular problem though.
     
    #12 VikeMan, Apr 25, 2014
  13. MarkF150

    MarkF150 Zealot (675) Feb 9, 2009 Massachusetts

    Hops are usuay purchsed a few days before st my LHBS, www.beer-wine.com they move a lot of product so I font think they are old. They store them in the freezer.
     
    #13 MarkF150, Apr 25, 2014
  14. psnydez86

    psnydez86 Initiate (0) Jan 4, 2012 Pennsylvania

    I just realized your centennials are 3.5%aa. Totally not related but that's incredible low for centennial.
     
    #14 psnydez86, Apr 25, 2014
  15. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    All hops are old at certain times of the year. (The harvests are annual.) Whether they seem old in the beer depends on storage conditions. What kind of package do they come in? And is there a brand name on them? Vacuum Packed or Nitrogen Flushed is best, preferably in an O2 barrier package.

    ETA: Can you describe how you are CO2 flushing your kegs?
     
    #15 VikeMan, Apr 25, 2014
  16. MarkF150

    MarkF150 Zealot (675) Feb 9, 2009 Massachusetts

    Yeah, all hops are old at some point. They are all in Hop Union bags.
     
    #16 MarkF150, Apr 25, 2014
  17. MarkF150

    MarkF150 Zealot (675) Feb 9, 2009 Massachusetts

    I was screwing around with some stuff and must not have changed it back.
     
    #17 MarkF150, Apr 25, 2014
  18. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    I think those are Nitrogen flushed, so that should be fine.

    What about your CO2 keg flushing method?
     
    #18 VikeMan, Apr 25, 2014
  19. MarkF150

    MarkF150 Zealot (675) Feb 9, 2009 Massachusetts

    I seal the keg and flush it with CO2 and then do a pressurized transfer to it using CO2
     
    #19 MarkF150, Apr 25, 2014
  20. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    When you're purging, how many times are you doing it, and at what pressure?
     
    #20 VikeMan, Apr 25, 2014
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