NEIPA Dry Hopping Dosage

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by drink1121, Apr 24, 2018.

  1. drink1121

    drink1121 Initiate (0) Mar 23, 2009 California

    I have read that breweries producing great NEIPA-style beers dry hop way more than I have been in my versions. I just read a brewery did 9lb./bbl dry hops in 3 different doeses, which equates to 23 ounces in a 5 gl. batch. I have been dry hopping about 8-12 ounces total between one or two doses for 3 days each. Anyone out there get above a lb. (16 ounces) of dry hops for a 5 gal. batch or even up past 20 ounces? Is it worth it? If so, how are you doing it?
     
  2. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,619) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Premium

    I brewed my version of Trillium Fort Point following a clone recipe in BYO. That recipe called for total of 5 ounces for dry hopping. That beer turned out great.

    I don't understand the need for much more than that but I am confident that folks will post that you need waaaay more than 5 ounces for dry hopping.

    Cheers!
     
  3. TheHumanTorch

    TheHumanTorch Initiate (161) Jul 19, 2013 Connecticut

    I look at dry hopping from a per varietal standpoint. 8 oz of just citra in a 5 gallon batch probably ends up muddled, whereas 8 oz split between citra, simcoe and amarillo might be nice and bright.

    I've done the equivalent of 20 oz of dry hops for a 5 gallon batch. I would describe that batch as having intense hop aroma, but being grassy and muddled.
     
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  4. Prep8611

    Prep8611 Aspirant (235) Aug 22, 2014 New Jersey

    I’ve settled in at about 6-8 ounces dry hop for this style usually split in 3 to 4 ounce increments between biofermentation and then a few days before kegging. Most pale ales of normal variety get an ounce or two.
     
  5. drink1121

    drink1121 Initiate (0) Mar 23, 2009 California

    how do these beer hold up to the Tillium, Treehouse, Monkish, Civil Society's of the world?
     
  6. Prep8611

    Prep8611 Aspirant (235) Aug 22, 2014 New Jersey

    Most definitely not as good but good enough for me and people that taste them. I think you are thinking more hops=always better which is not the truth.
     
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  7. drink1121

    drink1121 Initiate (0) Mar 23, 2009 California

    please dont assume what I am thinking. thats why I am asking people on here. I am wondering what people are doing and how the beers are tasting. I feel like mine are close to the best BUT not as good. I am wondering if its the amount of dry hopping or not. I know more hops doesnt mean better, so again, pelase dont assume.
     
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  8. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Crusader (780) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    I find that any more than about an oz. per gallon is overkill. If you want to add a lot of hops to your beer with excellent effect, add them while cooling.

    @TooHopTooHandle
     
  9. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Meyvn (1,206) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado

    I doubled up on my dryhop additions on my weldwerks juicy bits clone. I feel like it was diminishing returns with the 16 oz of hops I used, 8 oz would probably have been enough.
     
  10. wasatchback

    wasatchback Aspirant (259) Jan 12, 2014 Utah

    Monkish did a beer with 9# per barrel.. I think JC said most of the non DDH Street IPAs are between 2.5 and 3# per barrel in one single charge. Then more for DDH although I doubt it’s twice the amount. I’ve definitely read quotes from Other Half and Tired Hands with DH amounts over 5# per barrel. I would bet 4-5# per barrel is the norm for the ridiculous in your face aroma from 2 feet away.

    I’ve recently tried 16oz and then 12oz in 2 separate 6 gallon batches. I bagged the 16oz one and the 12oz went in commando. Both single DH additions. They were some 2016 hops I needed to get rid of and the beers themselves were meant to just be experiments so I wasn’t too concerned with how they came out. They are definitely waaaay more aromatic than anything I’ve ever made and on the first one the aroma isn’t fading and we’re approaching 4 weeks in the keg I think. Just kegged the other one. If you can keep O2 to the absolute minimum (and I mean nada) I do think the huge DH amounts make a difference. If you can’t then yeah don’t bother. That means first DH addition with a point or two to go so yeast can scavenge and if you want to add another it has to be in a complete sealed O2 free environment. Which can be hard on a homebrew scale! Anyone seen a homebrew size hop cannon?

    However I do think there are negative connotations to such huge amounts. It definitely adds a decent amount of bitterness and with certain hops it can add that chalkiness especially if they’re Aussie Hops. (Anyone read Nate’s most recent description of Green?) I think if you’re adding that high of an amount you either need a centrifuge (Trillium) or need to fine (gasp!) or keep the beer at 32 or below for a little while to precipitate some of the polyphenol load out of the beer. I think I’ll probably max out somewhere between 8-10 oz on a huge beer.
     
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  11. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Crusader (780) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    Yeah . . . when you approach that 2 oz. per gallon area, you definitely get some unpleasantness. As I said, somewhere between 1 and 1.5 oz. per gallon seems to be the sweet spot for most. Depending on the varietal(s) used, of course.
     
  12. TooHopTooHandle

    TooHopTooHandle Initiate (84) Dec 20, 2016 New York

    I have played with this doing my gallons batches and I was doing 8oz in whirlpool and 2-8oz dry hops. then I was playing with switching increments around and what I found to be the best flavor/smooth bitterness/and aroma was to switch the dry hop and whirlpool additions. So I will do a 16oz whirlpool at 180 for 30min(no boil hops) and do a 4oz dry hop or 2-4oz dry hops. I found that this has eliminated any hop burn for me and I can literally drink this beer 3 days after kegging it and its amazing when doing a single dry hop. I do find with a double dry hop it takes about 5 days in the keg before it has 0 hop burn. I also do a 48 hour cold crash at 35 degrees which I find makes a world of a difference when it comes to the hop burn. Everyone has diff likes a preferences, but I just thought I would share my experiences with you. I have brewed this same NEIPA about 12 times now with same grist, yeast, hops, water profile, and ferm temp. Only making minor tweaks to perfect the recipe. The past 2 times I have not made any tweaks as I feel the recipe is on point now. I will state that I use London 1318 and have been top cropping it and have used up to 7th generation of it and after gen 4 it really starts to shine and become the yeast I was looking for. 7th generation was by far the best for all aspects of it. 7th generation fully fermented out in 36 hours on a 1.072 beer down to 1.020. I also mash at 154 and I do not find this beer sweet at all neither do the people who drink it. I think the massive flavor/and smooth bitterness help from keeping it sweet. Any questions at all feel free to ask. I am no expert at all, I've just brewed this recipe enough that I've turned it into what I've bee looking for.

    *edit* I will add that the aroma/and flavor hold up for at least 6 weeks in a keg. I have not had a keg last longer than that so I can not advise beyond 6 weeks
     
  13. Rrrainy

    Rrrainy Initiate (0) Jan 5, 2018 Netherlands

    It's really interesting to hear this as both Trillium and Cloudwater and most likely a majority of the NEIPA brewers seem to add more hops in the dryhop than in the whirlpool.
    Do you dryhop in the keg?

    Either way, thanks for sharing your experiences, as this experimenting over multiple batches with similar recipes is always very interesting.
     
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  14. TooHopTooHandle

    TooHopTooHandle Initiate (84) Dec 20, 2016 New York

    I am not sure if surface area plays any role in the out come here with dry hopping so I can not comment on that part, but for my preference on a home brew scale this is what I found to be the best combination. I have dry hopped in the keg a few batches. I did a 4oz in primary and a 4oz in keg bagged up and also other increments, but I did not see an added benefit IMO vs doing the second dry hop in the primary. I did notice the hop burn def took a lot longer to go away. Some pours it was there and some pours it was not. I would randomly get little hop particles on some pours too. I also think bagging them restricts extraction to some point vs just tossing them in commando in a fermenter, but some people prefer one way over the other and I prefer not to keg dry hop.

    *Edit* I will also note I'm usually in the keg with this recipe by day 7ish and drinking it by day 10ish
    So maybe that's where the bigger dry hops on the commercial scale come into play because their grain to distribution time is much longer than my grain to glass time therefore drinking mine super fresh requires less dry hopping to achieve the same hop aroma/flavor as theirs. Not really sure just tossing that theory out there lol
     
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  15. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Crusader (780) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    I would agree with this bit, but, then again, I use only whole leaf, so they've got to go in commando.
     
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  16. drink1121

    drink1121 Initiate (0) Mar 23, 2009 California

    usually commercial beers like this aren’t distributed. either way, they go grain to glass in about 6-9 days as well. the difference with commercial is they can do less dissolved oxygen and can circulate hops with the wort/beer. this makes me think that homebrewers should be using higher dry hopping rates.
     
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  17. TooHopTooHandle

    TooHopTooHandle Initiate (84) Dec 20, 2016 New York

    ok I don't mean distributed to stores. I was meaning canning and doing releases or for sale at the brewery
     
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  18. TooHopTooHandle

    TooHopTooHandle Initiate (84) Dec 20, 2016 New York

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    Just thought I would share a couple of my creations.
     
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  19. VikeMan

    VikeMan Meyvn (1,446) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania

    What kind of fermenter do you use? I have bagged whole leaf hops before. The only time it was a (minor) issue was one time several years ago when I tried it in a carboy. I can report that a bag of dry hops goes into a carboy neck easier than it comes out.
     
  20. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Crusader (780) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    Exactly. I ferment in 6.5 gallon carboys.
     
  21. wasatchback

    wasatchback Aspirant (259) Jan 12, 2014 Utah

    Who goes grain to glass in 6-9 days???

    Treehouse beers are 18-21 days before hitting cans. Heady is 21ish days when I’ve heard it quoted.. not sure what you guys are drinking but heavily hopped IPAs are horrible super young. They need that time to all come together and mellow out and refine their flavor. Then they taste best 2 weeks from canning generally.

    From everything I’ve read and listened to I would guess DH amounts are 1.5 to 2 times leger than whirlpool amounts for these beers.
     
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  22. drink1121

    drink1121 Initiate (0) Mar 23, 2009 California

    Just watched a video with Brad Smith and Randy Mosher that said he had a beer do it in 8 days. mine are ready in 7-8 days easy. Civil Society does most of theirs that quickly as well. I am sure there are others. SO4 yeasts and alike are extremely fast fermenters, making it easy as.
     
  23. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Crusader (780) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    I usually package mine after about 7 or 8 days (most recent went 11 for some reason), but I'd agree that they need a couple weeks to condition and hit that sweet spot.
     
  24. VikeMan

    VikeMan Meyvn (1,446) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania

    And, ya know, carbonate.
     
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  25. invertalon

    invertalon Devotee (412) Jan 27, 2009 Ohio

    In the past, I was always using around 8oz of dry hop between two charges. On my next one, I am doing a different approach by dry hopping in the keg. Which I have done in the past by using 2oz or so into one of those hop mesh canisters.

    But this time, I will add a 3oz charge for fermentation dry hop, then near FG rack that into the keg with the dip tube cut and a hop/filter inside with the dip tube going through it. The other 3oz or so dry hop will be added loose in the keg and then sealed and spunded. Hops will sit in there until it's gone. My last IPA had the hops sit in the beer until it kicked for over two months and it never got any grassy flavors or anything... So I will try it again this time, but with the hops loose as mentioned vs. in the canister.

    Vic Secret, Galaxy and Simcoe... Should be divine!
     
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  26. thebriansmaude

    thebriansmaude Initiate (55) Dec 16, 2016 Alberta (Canada)

    Curious how you are rigging up the dip tube into the filter? Are these the filters found on amazon and the like ?

    Sounds like you would extract way more hop flavour this way as opposed to a bag.
    @invertalon
     
  27. wasatchback

    wasatchback Aspirant (259) Jan 12, 2014 Utah

    It’s on Scott Janish’s blog. He documents exactly how he does it.
     
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  28. invertalon

    invertalon Devotee (412) Jan 27, 2009 Ohio

    Yes, something like this:

    https://www.amazon.com/Hopper-Filte...pID=41hm3g9BG2L&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

    Going to drill a hole in the top and just feed the dip tube right into it, so it blocks any hop material. I have two of these, so will only modify one to see how it goes. I typically never hop in the keg, but just trying some new stuff. Typically, I just did in primary and never with bags/filters. Always dump right in and crash the hops out before transfer.
     
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  29. Rrrainy

    Rrrainy Initiate (0) Jan 5, 2018 Netherlands

    A big rubber stopper (which I bought from my local online brewstore) works great to close off the top of the cheap filter cannisters you can by online. The dip tube fits nicely in the predrilled hole.
    I use the small 18cm high (7inch) ones in my 3.5 gallon kegs and that works perfectly. The filter doesn't necessarily need to cover the whole diptube. So I'm guessing the 28cm (11inch) ones should be perfect for 5 gallon kegs.
     
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  30. thebriansmaude

    thebriansmaude Initiate (55) Dec 16, 2016 Alberta (Canada)

    I'm attempting the floating dip tube in serving keg approach ATM. Just racked a pale ale onto 2oz loose dry hops in the serving keg with a spunding valve. Hopefully I get max hop utilization this way and then avoid sucking up any hop debris by cold crashing and using the floating dip tube.

    Anyone else ever try this ?
     
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  31. wasatchback

    wasatchback Aspirant (259) Jan 12, 2014 Utah

    I bought one of the Floating Dip Tubes a while ago, might have to try it soon. Every time I’ve transferred with a few points to a keg with bagged DH and spunded I get worse aroma than if I had just put the hops
    In the fermenter and let it finish, makes no sense. Might try loose with the floating Dip Tube but then actually transfer again after it’s crashed. I know people say it’s fine to leave that much yeast/hops in a serving keg but I just struggle with the idea of it.
     
  32. Hoppist

    Hoppist Initiate (15) Mar 5, 2018 Greece

    Could you please post the perfected recipe?
     
  33. TooHopTooHandle

    TooHopTooHandle Initiate (84) Dec 20, 2016 New York

    6 gallon batch (1.075 target)
    Mash 156 degrees
    11lbs-2row
    2lbs- flaked oats
    2lbs- flaked wheat
    2lbs- white wheat
    .5lbs- honey malt
    .5lbs- crystal 10
    London 1318
    5oz of citra, 5oz of denali, 5oz of Eldorado, 5oz of galaxy.
    4ozs of each hop for a 30 minute hop stand at 180 degrees and let the temp free fall
    2.02:1 chloride(17 grams) to sulfate(7grams) ratio also 3ml of lactic acid (all added to mash)your numbers will probably be different here because of equipment profile difference.
    I make a 2 liter starter 24 hours before I will have to pitch and pitch the whole starter and use an aeration wand for the suggested time from brewcipher
    Ferm temp controlled at 68
    24 hours in to fermentation add 1oz of each hop
     
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  34. honkey

    honkey Zealot (535) Aug 28, 2010 Arizona
    Premium

    I frequently think I may sound like a broken record when this conversation comes up, but it's so important to realize the role of the quality of the hops. As a homebrewer, you are not likely to get the best lots of any hops, so the over dry hopping concern is real because you'll end up with excess polyphenols in comparison to the amount of oils the hops contain. Lupulin Powder is probably one of the most helpful things for homebrewers that has been released in the last few years in that regard. In comparison, one of our beers in Tombstone uses only individually selected lots of hops at a rate equivalent to 6 oz. per gallon. I also add lupulin powder and oil to maximize the hop character. It is overwhelming, but it is not burning. I drink it straight from the fermenter the day after cold crashing and it is INTENSE, but not at all unpleasant or harsh. As long as there's no hop particles in suspension, it is enjoyable. Normally with those hops that are pelletized to our specification, they settle out in 2-3 days, so those beers are ready to drink 10 days after the brew day.
     
  35. TooHopTooHandle

    TooHopTooHandle Initiate (84) Dec 20, 2016 New York

    I have noticed with a proper cold crash the beer drinks quite nice 10days after brew day. I actually enjoy it that fresh, but like you said the hop particles in suspension can play a large role in how harsh it is and the hop burn. Once I started doing a 38 degree cold crash for 48 hours it has made the beers much more pleasant.
     
  36. TooHopTooHandle

    TooHopTooHandle Initiate (84) Dec 20, 2016 New York

    I just realized I forgot to put the dry hopping rate in here lol
    I used 1oz of each hop 24 hours into fermentation. I only do a single dry hop, but I have experimented with double dry hopping and for my taste I like the single dry hop better.
     
  37. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,619) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Premium

    Weedy, just to clarify – when you state “Lupulin Powder” are you referring to the product marketed as Cryo Hops by YCH?

    https://ychhops.com/hop-products/cryo-hops

    I had a lengthy conversation with a guy from YCH about this ‘new’ product at the recent HomebrewCon in Portland. Once aspect he related to me is that Cryo Hops should be used at a 1:2 ratio as compared to ‘regular’ pellet hops (e.g., if you normally would add 2 ounces of ‘regular’ pellet hops you should substitute in 1 ounce of the same variety of Cryo Hops). Is this consistent with your experience/understanding?

    Also, at a presentation at HomebrewCon about hops by Ted Hausotter of the company Hop Heaven (see informational links below) he stated he was not a fan of Cryo Hops since he stated “the aroma/flavor does not hold up as well for pellet hops”. In other words the beer will experience accelerated hops fade. Have you heard of this before? I suspect that for your beers they are consumed quickly so this aspect may not be noticed in commercially brewed beers?

    Cheers!

    https://www.homebrewcon.org/speakers/ted-hausotter/

    https://lupulinexchange.com/user/profile/7469