New England Style IPLs

Jack Abby has always done IPLs, and done it really well. I was blown away by them when I visited Boston last summer. I'm not surprised they did a hazy version being a NE brewer. I had the Wicked Philthy as well and I enjoyed it. It wasn't amazing though. I like the regular IPL lineup from them better than the hazy version with Sole, but I am all for them experimenting.

I don't think this is the new trend. I just see a lot of collaborations happening and we all get to enjoy the partnerships.

 

The traits of NE IPAs will become more popular in other styles... and the gap between IPAs and IPLs barely exists in a certain way. The thing that people have become quick to forget is that brewers all over the country have been brewing "juicy" IPAs before the NE IPA was a thing here. Case in point - you mentioned Kiwi Rising. That beer predates the current NE IPA conversation so it clearly wasn't brewed with that convention in mind.

 

A new beer style for the 'crhazies'!?!

I wonder if/how they create a turbid/murky appearance while brewing via the lager brewing process (i.e., lager yeast, a lagering process)?

Cheers!

@telejunkie @SFACRKnight

 

I had the Wicked Philthy collab and didn't think it was that hazy or juicy, and wouldn't compare it to a New England style IPA, but it is a nice hoppy IPL. Seems like they are trying to create their own new style. I prefer Excess IPL from Jack's Abby. Mass Rising and Kiwi Rising are really good too. Peak has been doing good things with their hoppy beers, and I still haven't had Super Fresh but I've had some of the other hoppy pilsners and they are really nice. I'd like to try more hazy hoppy IPLs.

 

The wicked philthy I bought was quite clear. Untappd pictures show a very wide range of appearance for this beer. Aside from the wide swings in appearance, the beer was a mess imo. Filthy with the F would be a somewhat apt description for the hop flavors.

 

I don't think they know what a Pilsner is. But that seems to be the only "acceptable" lager style to beer nerds, so these beers get labeled as such.

 

I was always under the impression that categorizing a beer as NEIPA required use of English Ale yeast. Otherwise dry hopping and not filtering isn't something that was ever unique to the east coast. Sooooo not filtering a hoppy lager is a New England lager? That seems crazy to me. Google unfiltered pilsner urquell..

 

I had Peak Organic's Super Fresh and to my surprise, it was awesome! Definitely will buy again!

 

It's been my understanding that the yeast used for a NEIPA doesn't really matter. The style is defined by what is perceptible...

The desired haziness was captured by dry-hopping during fermentation with the english yeast strains, and my understanding is the mouthfeel may be impacted by the yeast strain...

The appearance, mouthfeel, and hop character are what defines the NE IPA. The ingredients used to achieve that are subject for interpretation.

On the topic of "pilsners" I think the rigidity of people's definition of it on American craft beer/homebrewing forums is crazy. Reading through the German hobbybrauer.de forum they seem to be much more accepting a range of interpretations of the pils style using new hops...

Peak is not advertising their "Fresh" pilsners as german or czech pilsner, or even traditional examples of the style.

 

You kind of contradict yourself. You say that it doesn't matter what ingredients you use as long as a beer is perceived a certain way, it will be classified as a style based off of perception. But then you say that dry hopping with english yeast specifically, is what creates a certain perceived mouthfeel needed for NEIPA classification. So obviously certain styles do most definitely depend on specific processes and ingredients used.

Also, I wasn't commenting on rigidity of pilsner classification and whether peak shouldn't call their beer a pilsner. I am more so saying that it's a bit of a stretch to now call something a NEIPL because its unfiltered. New England doesn't get to own every hazy beer in the world (I always note by saying I myself and my entire family are from MA, CT, or NH so you know I don't have an anti-NE bias .

 

You gotta stop talking about Peak. I can buy it for $15/12 pack while all the trend chasers are waiting in lines.Shhh.

 

I know you weren't talking about pilsners. I should have added the quote from the other person. Those were separate trains of thought.

I said that the first NE IPA's may have achieved their haziness and/or mouthfeel from an english yeast strain. I did not say that was the only way it could be achieved though.

I've always heard of the Conan yeast strain being used. I don't know if that's actually an english yeast strain... According to the mad fermentationist it is rumored to have an english origin but it didn't really become known until it came to prominence at the Vermont Pub & Brewery.

But with every yeast the use of an abundance of hops leaves a lot of particulate/oils in suspension in the beer... There are also ways to use grains, mashing, and water profiles to change up the mouthfeel.

If someone uses a Kolsch yeast and can get the same characteristics as Trillium or Tree House you won't say they aren't making a NEIPA because they don't use an English ale yeast.

I wonder what belgian yeast would do... Possibly these IPL's have a lot of the similar characteristics... But are they still noticeably distinct from using ale yeast? If they just taste like an IPA then what is the point of going through the effort to use lager yeast instead?

 

Hmm the wicked philthy I had was pretty hazy. For sure the best Ipl I've tried. But still a bit odd. Not sure if I would seek out the style.

 

Was that IPL distinct from an IPA? I've only seen Urban Chestnut Hopfen and Sam Adams Ella Blanc.

The Hopfen was so muddled in it's flavors that it really didn't taste like a lager. I wonder if my 4-pack was just old or oxidized or something else going on, or if it was normal... I've only been to Missouri once and that wasn't even half a mile past the border. I wish I had gone with UCBC's Zwickel instead but I just wanted to actually try an IPL to see what they were like, and I still don't know if I do.

The Ella Blanc was just very mild tasting I thought.

 

Okay I don't agree. For example, Cellarmaker actually does experiment with different yeast usage. A few months ago they made their "Dankers Team" (say it out loud lol) "steam" beer. So they fermented with lager yeast at warm temps and dry hopped the hell out of it. The result was a hazy/dank/juicy steam beer. But they obviously didn't label it as an IPA (especially not a NEIPA) because it isn't one, even though it was soft/juicy/hazy/hoppy blah blah blah.

Another example: A Baltic Porter. You blind taste test some of those things and can't tell them apart from certain other porters or stouts. So the yeast plays a role in the style classification.

So I don't agree. Perception is subjective and overall people can have some sort of perception of what a beer tastes like, but all we really have to differentiate styles is to accompany sensory analysis with actual ingredients and processes so as to truly differentiate styles. The only thing separating many NE IPA with many IPA now adays is yeast. For example, Cellarmaker makes IPAs with California Ale yeast that are every bit as fruity as Treehouse but because of the yeast used they are not making a NEIPA. So a lager being hazy does not warrant it being called NE lager.

 

What a brewery calls their beer is just marketing. If Cellermaker thought their beer would be more interesting by calling it a "California Common" then they can call it whatever they like. The only thing it appears Dankers Team had in common with a "California Common" was that it used lager yeast... That would be like Peak calling their Super Fresh a Munich Helles because they both used german lager yeast... It's complete nonsense but if it gets people to buy the beer then a brewery will say it.

It just sounds like Cellarmaker don't want to call their IPA's "NE IPA's"... For one thing if they CALL it a NE IPA then there may be pages of people on this forum bashing them because it doesn't live up to the status of beers from Tree House. A NE IPA is still an IPA, just like a Black IPA is still an IPA. The category is IPA but the sub-category can provide some additional details about the specific characteristics you'll find... But can also provide a lot more debate and controversy if they are not there... Especially when you're talking about something like the NE IPA...

Baltic Porters should taste differently than English style porters/stouts, and definitely different than Americanized porters/stouts with high hop character. Tasting Sinebrychoff for example is distinctly different than other things... Just because an american brewer doesn't understand the distinctions between them just means they don't know what they're talking about. A Baltic Porter should be much more smooth and clean tasting, with dark fruitiness from the malts but no fermentation character.

Brewers Association:
"Baltic-Style Porters are very deep ruby/garnet to black. Distinctive malt aromas of caramelized sugars, licorice, and chocolate-like character of roasted malts and dark sugars are present. Roasted dark malts sometimes contribute coffee-like roast barley aroma. Low smoky aroma from malt may be evident. Debitterized roast malts are best used for this style. Because of its alcoholic strength, may include very low to low complex alcohol aromas and/or lager fruitiness such as berries, grapes, plums, but not banana; ale-like fruitiness from warm fermentation is not appropriate. Hop aroma is very low, though a hint of floral or sweet hop aroma can complement aromatics without dominance. Medium-low to medium-high malt sweetness is present, with distinctive flavors of caramelized sugars, licorice, and chocolate-like character of roasted malts and dark sugars. Roasted dark malts sometimes contribute coffee-like roast barley flavor, yet not bitter or astringent roast character. Low degree of smoky flavor from malt may be evident. Debitterized roast malts are best used for this style. Hop flavor is very low. Baltic Porter is a true smooth cold-fermented and cold lagered beer, brewed with lager yeast. Because of its alcoholic strength, may include very low to low complex alcohol flavors and/or lager fruitiness such as berries, grapes, plums, but not banana; ale-like fruitiness from warm temperature fermentation is not appropriate. Body is medium to full."
"Robust Porters are very dark to black. Hop aroma is very low to medium. They have a roast malt flavor, often reminiscent of cocoa, but no roast barley flavor. Caramel and other malty sweetness is in harmony with a sharp bitterness of black malt without a highly burnt/charcoal flavor. Hop flavor is very low to medium. Hop bitterness is medium to high. Diacetyl should not be perceived. Fruity esters should be evident, balanced with all other characters. Body is medium to full."

 

As far as wicked philthy...the yeast is starting to settle on the bottom of the can. So if you pour with no manual disruption it's going to pour clear. Mix it up a bit and it's definetly hazy

 

Cellarmaker markets like 4-5 of their IPAs as NE style IPAs because they ferment those beers with english yeast. So they really actually only solidify my point. Obviously it's just one case though.

We are both saying the same things repeatedly at this point, so I will try one more time to frame mine in a new way and we will then have to agree to disagree perhaps.

I agree that baltic porter and every other style is classified based off of a variety of sensory characteristics. But at the root of sensory characteristics are specific inputs. A white IPA is fermented with a belgian strain. A west coast IPA with california ale yeast, and recently NEIPA with english or supposedly vermont ale yeasts. These inputs are a defining factor in creating a certain estery taste and smell, which is what really distinguishes these styles. So NEIPA is what it supposedly is perceived as, largely because of yeast used - as it is the main thing distinguishing it from WCIPA.

So if somehow we now have a New England IPL, it better be bringing something newer to the table than being dryhopped and hazy to warrant it's own distinction.