New pilsner idea

Kellerbier tho

 

I would argue that Kellerbier is not really an unfiltered Pils. Typically they are darker than German Pils at least and one of the distinguishing factors of a Pils is brilliant clarity, straw colored appearance, and large fluffy head. Kellerbiers typically don't really fall into any of those specifications.

 

Pale kellerbier can be a young pils or helles, either way haze is acceptable as is acetaldehyde and diacetyl both in low amounts of course.
BJCP 7c I believe.

 

A couple of years ago I homebrewed a Pale Kellerbier that was roughly based upon Mönchsambacher Lager. That beer was indeed pale in color and it only had a slight haze. It was a tasty beer and I could have labeled it as being a Keller Pils.

Cheers!

https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/5983/21625/

 

After doing some reading I am more confused about kellerbier than I was before. Franconian versions are darker and served still.

 

Jason, have you ever had a Mahr’s Kellerbier Ungespundet-Lager hefetrüb? I have had that beer on cask, draft and bottled and that beer is by no means still; plenty of carbonation in that beer.

Did you read the updated (2015) BJCP style guidelines for Kellerbier? If not, I would strongly recommend that you do.

Cheers!

Edit: http://biertravel.com/portfolio/kellerbier-zwicklbier-zoiglbier/

 

Could be fun. I'd really like to get a lager setup. Seems like the next logical step for a homebrewer

 

I do prefer a bright pilsner, admittedly. But for me, flavor (or aroma in this case) trumps appearance in some cases. Are you concerned about stripping out potential aromatics with filtering? As mentioned already, Saphir hops are pretty fickle. Do you think fining alone could drop the haze? I do use gelatin when I brew my dry hopped pilsner, and it does help to some extent, I can never quite get rid of all the haze.

 

They have lower carbonation, but I would say they are not still. I have had more than a few around Bamberg.

Edit - I had a few last Sept. in OberBayern that were unfiltered Helles. They were just a little hazy, the Helles was brilliant.

 

Using Gelatin my very well be impacting the aroma/flavor of your beer.

Brulosophy conducted an exBEERiment on using Gelatin on a hoppy beer (APA)

http://brulosophy.com/2015/01/05/the-gelatin-effect-exbeeriment-results/

The Brulosophy exBEERiment clearly (pun intended) demonstrates that gelatin created a clearer beer.

As regards aroma/flavor impacts:

“Aroma
Three tasters preferred the aroma of the beer with no gelatin while the other 2 preferred the gelatin-fined beer; similarly, 3 tasters thought the aroma of the no gelatin beers was somewhat similar to the gelatin-fined beer, while the others perceived them as being not at all similar.

Flavor
Four tasters preferred the flavor of the no gelatin beer while the other taster perceived no detectable differences; in terms of similarity, 2 reported the beers were not at all similar, 2 thought they were somewhat similar, and 1 felt they were exactly the same.”

It seems that gelatin does have an effect on aroma/flavor. The statement of “Four tasters preferred the flavor of the no gelatin beer” seems particularly telling.

Cheers!

 

I think a lot of people are really confused about the impact of filtering on flavor. A properly filtered beer does not strip flavor. There is some evidence that DE can absorb some hop oils and strip flavor, but we don't use DE (more because it's a paint to deal with). At my last brewery, we began sterile filtering everything before I left and the difference between sterile filtered beer and coarse filtration was nonexistent. Now, I just use a coarse filter that I think is rated at 9 microns.

I have found finings to have a much greater impact on hop flavor than filtration. I basically don't use Biofine (which, IMO, is superior to gelatin) anymore in hoppy beers because of this. 2-3 years ago I brewed a session IPA and it was really aromatic before fining. 2 days after fining and it was such a huge difference that I stopped using it. At that same time we released an IPA and DIPA for the first time and I decided not to fine them based on the results with the session.

As long as you do proper yeast dumps (with most yeast strains) and get the beer down to under 34 degrees F, it's easy to get beer to clear to the point of being almost brilliant without use of finings. This doesn't hold true for NEIPA's. The filter is just a polishing step to finish it up.

 

FWIW, with my comments I'm probably a lot more biased than most brewers about what makes a proper Pils. When I was at Doemens, I became obsessed with the idea of brewing a Pils that would make Germans proud here in America. As you might imagine, I spent most of my time with my professors asking about specifics of pretty much every little detail of German Pilseners. They are very opinionated about it with no room for disagreement. Then when we did a brewery tour for two weeks, each brewery that had a Pils I would ask the master brewer about it. Some of the highlights of what I learned from these brewers which I have made my goal:

-33 IBU's... No more, No less. One brewer told me they make their's "very" hoppy... 36 IBUs and it lead to a somewhat spirited debate
-Straw colored appearance... Not yellow, not gold. Straw.
-"Finely filtrated German lagerbier." A quote we heard on a daily basis
-Large, fluffy white foam. If you can stick your ear to the glass and hear bubbles popping, you screwed up. I believe the professor that said that said "I listed to your American beers and it's like a machine gun!"

Those were some fun times.

 

Jack, I did read them, and refrenced them in an above post. The refrence to kellerbier being still was from byo. It seems style guidelines and historical styles never quite jive. As a homebrewer I will be sticking with bjcp at this point. For competition it looks like a category for hazy lagers.

 

Very interesting info, I definitely was ignorant re: filtering vs. fining. Thanks everyone! Guess I may have to stop fining and rely on cold/time.

 

Yup, the BYO article stated: “Because of the lack of carbonation, a Kellerbier typically produces next to no head — more like a British ale than a German lager.”

http://byo.com/stories/item/955-kellerbier-style-profile

Even the cask Mahr’s U that I had was plenty carbonated; it had a head.

Are you a member of AHA? In the March/April 2014 issue of Zymurgy in the Style Spotlight column there was a discussion on Kellerbier. I would recommend that article for reading.

Cheers!

 

That is some great information. I would love to try some of your beers... But the closest I expect to get to Tombstone for the forseeable future is visiting in-laws in El Paso... And taking a trip up to their cabin in New Mexico... But that is still 4.5-5 hours away.

I wonder if their decision of 33 IBU's has changed over the years. Looking at the table from hobbybrauer.de the pils IBU's listed were from 30-36 IBUs normally with a few outliers... Although I know that I have heard people say that a lot of the german pilsner IBUs have decreased over the last few decades.

I'm going to be transferring a 2.5 gallon pilsner I brewed to its lagering vessel. I was trying to make a fairly standard one except for using the new Loral hops. 11.6 Plato, 36 calculated IBU's (it should be lower from what I know of actual usage). All pilsner malt except for a tiny amount of Acidulated to try to keep the mash ph a little lower.

I'll taste it when transferring and hopefully it'll be acceptable to me... I realized when I was done with the boil that the ice bath I normally use to chill the wort was too small for my new kettle so I wasn't able to cool it nearly as much as I wanted to before putting it in the fermenter. Although my fridge did bring it down before I added the yeast.

 

I do believe that IBU levels have been going down for quite some time. The first time we were given the figure of 33 IBU's was in class when we were talking about German beer history. We were told that the "proper" target used to be 45 IBU. We were not given a time frame for when that was common.

If you like getting into beer trading, I can get you in touch with some people here. We just started a barrel society sign up which includes in state shipping to member's front doors as a perk and a lot of those guys are big into trading. The trading scene in Phoenix and Tucson is huge.

 

Below is something I posted in a past thread on the topic of declining IBUs for German Pilsners:

“There are papers in technical journals which documented the bitterness levels of German brewed Pilsners in the past (a span of 3-4 decades ago).

I have hardcopy of the following articles:

· D.W. Lachenmeier, S. Triiebel and E. Lerch. “Bitterness Unts in beer: retrospective trends and current concept of commerce,” Monatsschrift für Brauwissenschafft November/December 2006, 1-2.

· Dr. Rudolf Thalacker, “Zur Verkehrsauffassung über die Bittereinheiten von Pilsbier.” Brauwelt NR 31-32 (2007), 848-851.

· Dr. Dirk W. Lachenmeier, “Allgenmeine Verkehrsauffassung über Bittereinheiten von Pilsbier,” Brauwelt NR 46-47 (2006), 1446-1448.

I also have hardcopy of a database used to support the research of one of the above papers.

It is useful to consider the number of Pilsners which exceeded the value of 45 (or 40) IBUs and this number is much greater than two beer brands. The facts clearly indicate that German breweries produced a significant number of Pilsner beers with high(er) values of IBU just a few decades ago.”

Cheers!

 

Weedy, so the issue here is the tightness of the filtration? Or is it a DE vs. non-DE filtration thing?

Sam (@bulletrain76) previously posted:

“Filtration selectively catches some aromatic compounds more than others. It's not just a matter or more or less but of changing the composition. Tighter filtration does change hop aroma somewhat. Not necessarily of the worse and it really depends of variety and what aroma you are going for.”

The bolding in the above paragraph is something I provided.

Cheers!

@sierranevadabill @Sixpoint

 

FWIW, that is what I do with my Pilsners. Yesterday I bottled a batch of CAP (Classic American Pilsner) after 5 weeks of lagering and needless to say no finings. The beer is not brilliantly clear but it is not cloudy either. I can see all of the letters on the branded beer glass through the beer and that is good enough for me.

Every brewer gets to choose their priorities and for me aroma/flavor trumps the need for absolute brilliance.

You should continue to utilize gelatin if you are satisfied with the results of your Pilsners.

Cheers!