Northeast Pales/IPA/DIPA

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by hoptualBrew, Jul 31, 2015.

  1. hoptualBrew

    hoptualBrew Defender (605) May 29, 2011 Florida

    Breweries in the Northeast like Tired Hands, Trillium, Hill Farmstead, Tree House are recently putting out some of the best hoppy beers in the country. One of the characteristics seems to be the haziness of the beer in appearance and the level of vibrant, juicy hop saturation.

    What brewing methods are manifesting these hallmark characteristics? Flaked wheat or barley additions to the 10% grist level? Hopping rates of 1-2 lb/bbl? Dry hopping regimines? Hopping under CO2 pressure?

    Anyone have any inside info on this or postulations? Cheers!
     
    Lukass likes this.
  2. telejunkie

    telejunkie Aspirant (244) Sep 14, 2007 Vermont

    JC from Trillium has been pretty open about some of his hallmark techniques...dry hopping under pressure is one of them. Think he's said he is using like 6-8oz./5 gal
    Maine Beer Co. is claiming over 6lbs of dry hops/bbl when they brew Dinner....would think they would need to be minimal contact time though.
    Personally I've been playing around the last two batches of IPA and wasn't happy with the results. Going back a few techniques I used a couple years ago coupled with some pointers I gleaned from JC.
     
    JCTetreault and ChrisMyhre like this.
  3. ChrisMyhre

    ChrisMyhre Initiate (0) Sep 15, 2013 Massachusetts

    I think a less flocculent yeast is key too.
     
  4. hoptualBrew

    hoptualBrew Defender (605) May 29, 2011 Florida

    I've theorized these things to contribute to increased hop character. Ideally, at the brewery I work for now, we would be using 7.5-10% of the grist flaked wheat, hop extract for bittering, increasing the Na and Cl levels while keeping the SO4 medium-high, using a bit of head pressure (1 psi) after dry hop additions, blow the settled hops up with bursts of high psi CO2 thru bottom of tank daily x4-5 days or until pressure hits 3 psi, cold crash and then transfer via CO2 at 5 psi head pressure. We'll see, maybe I can experiment soon.
     
    #5 hoptualBrew, Jul 31, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2015
  5. OldSock

    OldSock Zealot (576) Apr 3, 2005 District of Columbia

    I'd be reluctant to push the sodium too high. I've heard it clashes with high sulfate? The only time I add sodium is to sweet/dark beers.

    I think dry hopping with some extract left is essential for that juicy less "raw" hop character I get from most of those breweries.

    So hard to make definitive statements that include all of them though. Some use American, others English. Some use all fruitier hops, others include some Columbus/Chinook. Some have wheat/oats, others do not etc. I'd assume water treatment, hop timing, and other process details vary as well.
     
  6. psnydez86

    psnydez86 Initiate (0) Jan 4, 2012 Pennsylvania

    London 3 yeast is a great place to start.

    I've tried adding flour to the boil to induce haze but this London 3 in hoppy wort is something magical.
     
  7. psnydez86

    psnydez86 Initiate (0) Jan 4, 2012 Pennsylvania

    And flaked oats is certainly key to some of tired hands hoppy stuff. Their house IPA Hop Hands is rumored to be 88% pale malt and 12% flaked oats.
     
  8. hoptualBrew

    hoptualBrew Defender (605) May 29, 2011 Florida

    Damn, really? 12% flaked oats? Not to doubt you @psnydez86 , but where did you get you're info on the Tired Hands Hop Hands specs?

    I wonder if 12% Flaked Wheat would exhibit similar effects as 12% Flaked Oats?
     
    bushycook likes this.
  9. psnydez86

    psnydez86 Initiate (0) Jan 4, 2012 Pennsylvania

    http://www.alesoftheriverwards.com/2014/03/hopwards-tired-hands-brewing-hophands.html?m=1

    http://www.alesoftheriverwards.com/2014/07/hopwards-batch-2-tasting-notes-and.html?m=1

    I have used flaked wheat and flaked oats. I prefer flaked wheat as I feel it adds more body than oats do.

    I have done hoppy beers with 10-15% flaked grains and liked the results but the beers always tend to clear in the keg very quickly using us05 and sach trois primarily but this London 3 really never clears when the hops are involved.
     
    bushycook and hoptualBrew like this.
  10. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,950) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    So, London Ale III (Wyeast 1318) and generous hopping amounts result in hazy beer, is that correct?

    Does the beer clear with some time (e.g., 1-2 months post packaging)?

    Cheers!
     
    hoptualBrew likes this.
  11. psnydez86

    psnydez86 Initiate (0) Jan 4, 2012 Pennsylvania

    That is correct. I have my very first London 3 hoppy beer in primary right now so I have little personal experience.

    That said a friend of mine uses London 3 pretty much exclusevly in his hoppy beers and the beers never last 1-2 months but in 3 or 4 weeks at cold temp in a keg they really don't clear at all. Incredibly hazy and juicy looking. I love it. The Bros hate it.
     
  12. jlordi12

    jlordi12 Devotee (453) Jun 8, 2011 Massachusetts

    [​IMG]

    Kegged at a week. Drank at 2. 1098 moves just fast enough
     
    WillQC4Beer, ChrisMyhre and psnydez86 like this.
  13. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,950) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    This is the first time I have heard of a particular yeast strain not dropping clear when used to ferment a highly hopped beer.

    Does 1318 drop clear for low-moderately hopped beers?

    Are there other yeasts which behave the same way (i.e., not dropping bright when used to ferment highly hopped beers vs. low-moderately hopped beers)?

    I suppose I am trying to wrap my head around the notion that there is a relationship between a particular yeast strain and generous hop amounts resulting in long standing hazy beers.

    Maybe some others have information here:

    @telejunkie @Peter_Wolfe @bergbrew @bulletrain76 @Sixpoint

    Cheers!
     
  14. hoptualBrew

    hoptualBrew Defender (605) May 29, 2011 Florida

    Holy shit that's murky lol, it looks like the first pour off a cold crashed keg. I don't know if I'm looking for quite that cloudy. How does it taste though @jlordi12 ?
     
    inchrisin, MikeCooke and jbakajust1 like this.
  15. jlordi12

    jlordi12 Devotee (453) Jun 8, 2011 Massachusetts

    Tastes excellent. I was hesitant to try out rushing a beer like that, but the hop character is pretty sweet. I'd recommend a fast moving strain if you dabble. 1098 was up to the task, no off flavors
     
    hoptualBrew likes this.
  16. psnydez86

    psnydez86 Initiate (0) Jan 4, 2012 Pennsylvania

    It will clear with lower hopping rates. I believe I heard somewhere it has something to do hop glycosides.
     
  17. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,950) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    Dave Green (@telejunkie) discussed biotransformation in his BYO article entitled Advanced Dry Hopping techniques; he quoted Peter Wolfe (@Peter_Wolfe):

    “So what are biotransformations anyway? Once again I turned to Peter Wolfe to help dissect this term. He explained that when we talk about biotransformations on hop compounds we are talking about oil components that yeast have modified. An important aspect is that we are talking mainly about terpenoids and glycosides. Terpenes are rarely affected by biotransformations. Biotransformations of hop compounds in beer can occur in two forms. The first is fairly straightforward when one compound is transformed into another. An example of this would be the transformation of geraniol to ß-citronellol. The second biotransformation is the hydrolysis of the glycosides which was introduced earlier. Certain yeast strains have shown the ability to transform non-aromatic glycosides into aromatic terpenoids. Shellhammer and Wolfe found that certain aromatic terpenoids increased their concentration over time in the presence of yeast. This may be just one reason many people find bottle conditioned or unfiltered beer to be superior to filtered beer.”

    I have never heard that hazy/murky beer is a result of this biochemistry.

    I would also think that gravity (aided by cold storage) would get the haze to drop out with a bit of aging time (e.g., a month).

    Cheers!
     
  18. psnydez86

    psnydez86 Initiate (0) Jan 4, 2012 Pennsylvania

    @JackHorzempa from what I've heard the beer will never clear. Maybe in a few months but definitely not 1 month. I'll update you on that tho if I can keep this beer I just made on draft that long.
     
  19. SCW

    SCW Poo-Bah (1,692) Jul 25, 2004 New York
    Society Industry

    A lot of that haze is most likely the flaked cereal grains. I've never heard of hops having an effect on the flocculation of yeast, unless its copious amounts of dry hops in the tank (which yeast can settle around and get roused during transferring). Should not affect when added during the boil.

    cheers
     
  20. psnydez86

    psnydez86 Initiate (0) Jan 4, 2012 Pennsylvania

    Shane.

    London 3 is like no other yeast I've seen. Even moderate (to me) hopping levels makes this yeast stay in suspension like I've never seen. Flaked grains no matter how many you add can throw a haze like this.
     
  21. psnydez86

    psnydez86 Initiate (0) Jan 4, 2012 Pennsylvania

    [​IMG]
    This is my dry hop after 5 days of fermentation with a nice (over) pitch of London 3. This krauesen will not drop. I was actually a little worried. The krauesen looks like a brown Meringue. 2 or 3 inches thick. It refuses to drop. After asking my friend what the hell is happening here?? He said don't worry. His London 3 krausens never actually drop without help.

    I wanna blend this yeast with sach trois so baddddddd. :grinning:


    That was a 6 oz dry hop in a 1.048 OG beer.
     
    Scrapss, GetMeAnIPA and jlordi12 like this.
  22. psnydez86

    psnydez86 Initiate (0) Jan 4, 2012 Pennsylvania

    I had to punch those hops down thru that krausen with a sanitized spoon end.
     
    Scrapss likes this.
  23. hoptualBrew

    hoptualBrew Defender (605) May 29, 2011 Florida

    The brewery I'm at, we use White Labs. Next recipe I get to brew will be a pale ale with these characters and techniques, but with WLP008 East Coast, which is medium low flocculating with a subtle tart finish. Anyone have experience with hoppy ales with WLP008? I did one homebrew batch with WLP008 with Apollo and Amarillo hops a few years ago that was killer.. cloudy, citrus, dank. Looking back, I didn't know or implement anything I'm talking about today in that batch, just the yeast with the combo of those hops but it worked very well.
     
  24. psnydez86

    psnydez86 Initiate (0) Jan 4, 2012 Pennsylvania

    Shhhh.... If Todd hears talk of cloudy beer that tastes good he'll shut us all down.
     
  25. bulletrain76

    bulletrain76 Defender (612) Nov 6, 2007 California

    I would guess that almost all heavily hopped commercial IPAs are cloudy unless the brewer does something to clarify them. Ours are hazy until we filter them, though a month of cold storage will clear them pretty well. My main thought on the trend of more hazy IPAs is just that a lot of newer brewers don't want to clarify their beers. I don't think this has anything to do with how good the beers are. Yeast especially isn't adding anything positive to hop aroma or flavor. I actually find it pretty detrimental to hop flavor as it makes it coarse and muddy. A more flocculent yeast that gets out of the way quickly should be better for hop aroma.
     
    IKR, NiceFly, utahbeerdude and 3 others like this.
  26. Brew_Betty

    Brew_Betty Disciple (388) Jan 5, 2015 Wisconsin

    I really don't understand the desire to make a hoppy beer as hazy as possible. Whatever floats your boat, I guess.
     
    Genuine, A2HB and jmalex like this.
  27. hoptualBrew

    hoptualBrew Defender (605) May 29, 2011 Florida

    I guess my theory of cloudiness of the beer correlates with the level of hop saturation packed in. There is a difference between the clear hop forward beers of, say Pliny or Double Jack, as compared to the juicy hop saturation seen in the more cloudy offerings from the Northeast. My personal experience in drinking clear Cali hop bombs versus cloudy Northeast hop bombs is that they are a different animal. I think a mix of higher protein from flaked grains and lower attenuating yeast have something to do with keeping hop oil in suspension all the way to the drinkers glass and create a softer, more juicy mouthfeel and perceived flavor.
     
    Kemosabe likes this.
  28. Brew_Betty

    Brew_Betty Disciple (388) Jan 5, 2015 Wisconsin

    It's definitely possible to make a juicy hop bomb without it looking like a cup of gravy.
     
    Genuine, warchez, inchrisin and 2 others like this.
  29. psnydez86

    psnydez86 Initiate (0) Jan 4, 2012 Pennsylvania

    I agree with you but there is something special with these hazy NE hoppy beers. The thick haze makes the beer look and taste like a glass full of fruit juice. And the mouthfeel.

    I'll take a hoppy beer from Tired Hands over Pliny any day. And Pliny....is Pliny!!
     
    bushycook, ChrisMyhre and Brew_Betty like this.
  30. hoptualBrew

    hoptualBrew Defender (605) May 29, 2011 Florida

    @Brew_Betty , have you had any of these beers from the Northeast? Tired Hands, Trillium, Hill Farmstead, Tree House, etc? It's hard to explain the difference between them and the west coast beers like Russian River, Firestone, Ballast Point, Alpine, etc. Both styles, East and West coast can be stellar, but my personal preference has come to be the East Coast juicy, hop saturated, tropical fruit juice, soft mouthfeel representation. Problem is is I can't readily get them down here in FL but I do think more breweries will start copying the NE style, just as breweries have copied west coast ipa style over the past decade.
     
    Markstr, fab80, chipawayboy and 7 others like this.
  31. psnydez86

    psnydez86 Initiate (0) Jan 4, 2012 Pennsylvania

  32. ChrisMyhre

    ChrisMyhre Initiate (0) Sep 15, 2013 Massachusetts

    These brewers are in my backyard and I love them. I also enjoy a nice clear beer, even an IPA. In the end I think it's worth making beers like this and I think it's worth striving for clarity on others.
     
  33. JCTetreault

    JCTetreault Initiate (162) Mar 19, 2008 Massachusetts

    We use a very flocculant strain!
     
  34. ChrisMyhre

    ChrisMyhre Initiate (0) Sep 15, 2013 Massachusetts

    Fair enough and good to know. Of the new school New England IPAs, the only yeasts I know for sure are slow dropping and of British descent. Good to know that at least Trillium is taking another route.
     
  35. Brew_Betty

    Brew_Betty Disciple (388) Jan 5, 2015 Wisconsin

    I've had two HF beers, but neither of them were hoppy. Haven't had any of the others.

    I get it. The NW beers you are referring to taste like juice. My point is, you don't need a beer to look like a cup of gravy in order for it to taste like juice.
     
    GormBrewhouse likes this.
  36. hoptualBrew

    hoptualBrew Defender (605) May 29, 2011 Florida

    @JCTetreault , I understand if you want to keep you're methods proprietary, but I'd be interested to know how important raw materials are versus process in making such hop saturated beers. Also, how important or unimportant high protein unmalted grains are in achieving the results you look for in you're hoppy ales.
     
  37. JCTetreault

    JCTetreault Initiate (162) Mar 19, 2008 Massachusetts

    The short answer...it's all important, you need to focus on every aspect to arrive at the intended beer.

    Re: unmalted/raw/flaked adjunct...we don't use that in every hop forward beer. Actually, a relatively small % of our hop forward beers contain them.
     
    psnydez86, thatche2, biga7346 and 7 others like this.
  38. hoptualBrew

    hoptualBrew Defender (605) May 29, 2011 Florida

    Thanks @JCTetreault , my fiancé heading up to Boston later this week, I'm sending her you're way to pick up some liquid gold haha
     
  39. Coff

    Coff Initiate (86) Apr 28, 2010 Pennsylvania

    The haze in those beers is due to high %'s of flaked grains and a medium-low flocculating yeast strain, fining with gelatin or biofine doesn't seem to help much. I know some people don't like the cloudy nature of beers like HopHands etc, but its a necessary "evil" to achieve the silky smooth mouthfeel that balances the very low bittering levels of these beers, also a 1:1 Sulfate:Chloride is important.

    Whats not been mentioned is London 3's ester profile plays well with the huge hop aroma. To me thats one of the most important factors. Conan and even S-04 achieve something similar but London 3 dominates imo.

    Also, I think HopHands is (or was bc I think its a little different now) closer to %15-18 Flaked Oats. The clone recipes linked by @psnydez86 above are from my blog. Thanks for the shout out dude.
     
    GetMeAnIPA and psnydez86 like this.