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Oats: how much is too much?

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by adamholl, Jun 19, 2017.

  1. adamholl

    adamholl Aspirant (231) Sep 5, 2009 New York
    Subscriber

    Hi all!

    I just recently had, and loved, Other Half's Dream in Green, Very much NE style IPA, and reminded me a bit of Tired Hands with all the oats. According to Other Half, it is more than 50% oats! This seems crazy to me, or at least pushing things too far, but the beer was right in my wheelhouse.

    So - any thoughts on a beer with 50% oats in the mash? I do BIAB, so not worried about a stuck mash/sparge, but not sure what else I should worry about - conversion? mash temp? malted vs rolled?

    Anyway - any thoughts or experience is much appreciated.
     
  2. DrMindbender

    DrMindbender Savant (921) Jul 13, 2014 South Carolina
    Beer Trader

    That much oats is going to make a GIANT mess IMO...similar to straining breakfast oatmeal through your bag. I have gone 25% of the grain bill before (BIAB as well) and didn't like dealing with the mess and issues with absorption and trying to sparge enough to get a full volume boil. I also got a really low conversion efficiency compared to usual. I now go with 15% as my personal max to negate most of those issues. My beers may not be as oaty as some like, but I'm happy not having the headache.
     
    Lukass likes this.
  3. ECCS

    ECCS Aspirant (216) Oct 28, 2015 Illinois
    Beer Trader

    thebriansmaude likes this.
  4. adamholl

    adamholl Aspirant (231) Sep 5, 2009 New York
    Subscriber

    That's a good question - I don't have any idea if it's all flaked, or a combination of flaked and malted, or golden naked. I haven't been able to get any info out of them on it. I suppose it could be something like 25% flaked and 25% malted or GNO?
     
  5. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,067) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Supporter

    “…and reminded me a bit of Tired Hands with all the oats.” For the past couple of years Tired Hands has been brewing with oat malt (Thomas Fawcett).

    @DrMindbender states: “That much oats is going to make a GIANT mess IMO...similar to straining breakfast oatmeal through your bag.” Are you referring to flaked oats with this statement?

    Cheers!
     
    ECCS likes this.
  6. ECCS

    ECCS Aspirant (216) Oct 28, 2015 Illinois
    Beer Trader

    Im not sure about OH, but I know tired hands does 30% Thomas Fawcett oat malt in their milkshake series and I'm sure in some of their IPAs as well.

    I just did a 30% oat malt, 10% flaked oat, all citra NEIPA that I'm happy with. Although with all the citra, not sure how much oat I'm really able to taste. Mouthfeel is great though
     
  7. DrMindbender

    DrMindbender Savant (921) Jul 13, 2014 South Carolina
    Beer Trader

    Yes...I'm referencing flaked. Should have mentioned that. Cheers Jack!
     
    JackHorzempa likes this.
  8. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Devotee (472) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Supporter

    Two things to consider here:

    1) when you're working with that much unhusked grain, you're going to need something to prevent a stuck sparge. Rice hulls work wonders.

    2) With that much adjunct, you're going to have to be conscious of the diastatic power of your base malt. It's going to need to be high or else you're not going to get complete conversion and you'll get poor efficiency.
     
  9. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Devotee (472) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Supporter

    IMO, that's all you're going to get out of oats. Better mouthfeel because of an increase in beta-glucan content of the wort. Most adjuncts really don't "taste" like anything, but they do have benefits as far as body and mouthfeel go.
     
    ECCS likes this.
  10. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,067) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Supporter

    Neither of the two items you list are an issue when brewing with Oat Malt.

    Cheers!
     
    EvenMoreJesus likes this.
  11. Ten_SeventySix_Brewhouse

    Ten_SeventySix_Brewhouse Aspirant (275) Jul 20, 2016 Arizona
    Subscriber Beer Trader

    I did something like 20% rolled oats and 10-15% flaked wheat in my last NEIPA. Worked out well, I think, but I'll probably tinker with the recipe next time to dial it in.

    Arizona Wilderness did one a while back that was 100% oat malt. Can't say I was a huge fan, but it was definitely beer!
     
  12. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,067) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Supporter

    Oat Malt is not an adjunct.

    Cheers!
     
    LuskusDelph and telejunkie like this.
  13. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Devotee (472) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Supporter

    Indeed. Didn't think that the OP was, though, was he?
     
  14. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,067) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Supporter

    The OP posted:

    “I just recently had, and loved, Other Half's Dream in Green, Very much NE style IPA, and reminded me a bit of Tired Hands with all the oats. According to Other Half, it is more than 50% oats!”

    In my first post to this thread I detailed that Tired Hands has been brewing with Oat Malt for the past couple of years – they use Thomas Fawcett Oat Malt.

    Cheers!
     
  15. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Devotee (472) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Supporter

    Indeed, but rolled oats certainly are. I'm unsure of why you are pointing this out. Did I contradict myself somewhere along the line or give the OP misinformation?
     
  16. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,067) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Supporter

    I posted for two reasons:
    • When a person states "oat" that does not mean they are only referring to flaked oats.
    • In my above reply to you I repeated my post discussing that Tired Hands uses Oat Malt when brewing their beers.
    Cheers!
     
  17. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Devotee (472) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Supporter

    Don't know if he changed it, but I read this:

     
  18. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,067) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Supporter

    And I also read his original post as well.

    The only specific mention of rolled oats was his question at the end: "malted vs rolled?"

    Elsewhere when he asked about "50% oats" he did not specify which type of oat.

    Cheers!
     
  19. adamholl

    adamholl Aspirant (231) Sep 5, 2009 New York
    Subscriber

    Apologies for any confusion and thanks for the feedback . . . correct that I did not specify malted vs rolled oats. Mostly I am just trying to figure out what OH might have done, and how to replicate that on my setup. Seems like ECCS is on the right track - any reason you went with 30/10 as the malted/rolled split, as opposed to 20/20 or any other ratio?
     
    EvenMoreJesus likes this.
  20. ECCS

    ECCS Aspirant (216) Oct 28, 2015 Illinois
    Beer Trader

    No real concrete reason. I met Jean from tired hands at the half acre hidden gem release and he told me 30% fawcett oats. So I've had that stuck in my head...

    Over the last 2 or 3 batches, I've used a lot of specialty malt (flaked oats/wheat/rye, malted oats, oat milk, white wheat, honey malt, rye malt, dex malt, etc...). For my next batch I'm going to do all 2row with no specialities and keep the hop/yeast treatment the same to see what all those "extras" are really adding to the beer.
     
  21. telejunkie

    telejunkie Disciple (320) Sep 14, 2007 Vermont

    As reported, you can brew a 100% oat malt beer as the diastatic power of TF oat malt is above self-conversion threshold but can't seem to find that value currently. Couple things to keep in mind though is that oat malt doesn't have the diastatic power of barley malt, so you can't add as much adjuncts such as flaked wheat or flaked oats. Also it is not as acidic as barley malt resulting in a higher pH mash and finally there is less starch per pound when comparing oat malt vs barley malt, so can't remember if it results in lower yields or higher fg as a result.

    So if you want to go bigger with oat malt mixed with smaller amounts of unmalted...just don't go overboard with the unmalted as the Lintner value is considerably lower if I remember correctly.
     
  22. BeerMaverick

    BeerMaverick Initiate (173) Dec 14, 2010 Massachusetts
    Beer Trader

    I can't remember who the interview was with, but on one of the BeerSmith podcasts Brad's guest said you want at least 40L for your minimum diastatic power as a mash average. I incorporated this into a spreadsheet I made, but usually try to stay above 50L to be safe.
     
  23. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,067) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Supporter

    And what value do you utilize for Oat Malt in your spreadsheet?

    Cheers!
     
  24. VikeMan

    VikeMan Meyvn (1,345) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Beer Trader

    I have done mashes as far down as 25L and got the efficiency and attenuation I was expecting. I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad idea to play it safe, but I wouldn't feel bound by some arbitrary threshold based on what some guy said on a podcast.
     
  25. jcmmvp

    jcmmvp Initiate (106) Feb 24, 2017 Sweden

    I did one with 40% and it was horrible squezzing the bag. Ended up with low efficiency of course. The head on the beer were crap and the carbonation was like it was never went into the beer even tho it did. But you should try for yourself for the sake!
     
  26. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,067) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Supporter

    Did you use oat malt or is that flaked oats?

    Cheers!
     
  27. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,609) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Supporter Subscriber

    How long did you mash?

    I have thought about diastatic power quantitatively since I tried a Munich plus oatmeal stout about 10 years ago. I ended up adding a little 2 row or 6 row for the added DP, but in retrospect, I probably could have mashed longer, or even just let it ride, but the resulting beer did not inspire me sufficiently to give it another try.
     
  28. Seacoastbrewer

    Seacoastbrewer Aspirant (212) Jun 5, 2012 New Hampshire

    Vikeman posted a link to this article yesterday in a different thread but it is worth re-linking: http://byo.com/stories/item/621-fabulous-foam

    Specifically:
    • Fats and oils -- oats, coffee, chocolate, potato chips, and the like all contain fats and oils. Avoid the use of such ingredients if you want good foam. If you want chocolate porter more than foam, then don't worry -- you may get lucky and have good foam.
     
  29. VikeMan

    VikeMan Meyvn (1,345) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Beer Trader

    60 minutes. It might be safer to go longer, but 60 minutes has worked for me.
     
    pweis909 likes this.
  30. VikeMan

    VikeMan Meyvn (1,345) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Beer Trader

    My experience with flaked oats and malted oats has been that they are probably "foam neutral" at best. Didn't kill foam but didn't enhance it either as far as I could tell. I suspect that with oats it's a tradeoff between the foam positive proteins and the foam negative oils/fats.
     
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  31. JohnConnorforealthistime

    JohnConnorforealthistime Initiate (133) Mar 10, 2016 Wisconsin
    Beer Trader

    I'm with you on this one. I just brewed an IPA with ~16% oats and I'd say I had head for awhile but dissipated pretty quick. I'm looking at throwing some carapils in there to counter act the oils... for some reason I think I'll come up short on that one...
     
  32. wasatchback

    wasatchback Aspirant (265) Jan 12, 2014 Utah
    Beer Trader

    If you use malted oats and mill your own make sure to mill at a much smaller gap. Those suckers slide right through at .04
     
  33. jcmmvp

    jcmmvp Initiate (106) Feb 24, 2017 Sweden

    late reply but regular store bought oats. dont know what you call that in the us.
     
  34. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,067) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Supporter

    The type of oats sold in US grocery stores are rolled oats (flaked oats).

    Cheers!

    @Crusader
     
  35. BeerMaverick

    BeerMaverick Initiate (173) Dec 14, 2010 Massachusetts
    Beer Trader

    Hello, in my spreadsheet I take a weighted average of the DP of all the grain/adjuncts based on their contributed %s of the overall bill. If you mean what is the DP of malted oat, well I've never used oat malt (I use flaked), but all forms of oats have a DP of 0 and rely on the diastatic enzymes of the base malts to convert their starches to fermentable sugars.
     
  36. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,067) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Supporter

    That is incorrect. Oat Malt has Diastatic Power. The question I was asking is what value of DP do you utilize for Oat Malt in your spreadsheet tool.

    Cheers!
     
    BeerMaverick and GreenKrusty101 like this.
  37. VikeMan

    VikeMan Meyvn (1,345) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Beer Trader

    As @JackHorzempa said, Malted Oats have DP. I think the "0 DP" for malted oats myth got started because Thomas Fawcett (a major producer of malted oats) says "Adjunct, 5% - 10% of grist" in their specs. People have successfully made 100% malted oat beers.

    Note that we're talking about oat "base malt" here, and not something like Simpsons Golden Naked Oats, which are also technically malted oats but are a crystal malt, so the process destroys the DP.
     
  38. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Meyvn (1,307) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan

    The the Alpha and Beta enzymes (DP) that make the sugars we use to ferment, are the same that are used to convert starch to sugar in the kernel, and the grain embryo then uses for energy. If oats have no naturally occurring enzymes, there would be no oats!

    Edit - those enzymes are denatured or destroyed in the hot rolling operation used to make flaked oats and the kilning to make Golden Naked Oats. I agree with Vikeman.
     
  39. VikeMan

    VikeMan Meyvn (1,345) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Beer Trader

    IIRC, Alpha Amylase is produced during germination (i.e. malting) and while Beta Amylase does exist in the raw grain, much of it is bound in larger compounds and is released by germination (malting).
     
  40. plaztikjezuz

    plaztikjezuz Zealot (599) Dec 19, 2004 Michigan

    We have a bag of the TF oat malt in the shop. I was looking at the malt and there is a good about of hull on the oat malt. I was consider doing a 100% oat beer and or a 50%-50% oat malt/wheat malt. I really do not think there would be any sparge water flow issues with the oat malt. I was thinking it may let the water through too fast since there is so much hull. That is where the wheat idea came in the picture.
     
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