Old IPAs - What to do about this problem?

@cavedave Sneaky, sneaky.... you removed your link! But I quoted it first!
FWIW, your link didn't say anything about vibration effects either. Although I believe you that it could be a factor, albeit minor. On the molecular level chemistry is a contact sport - one molecule has hit another - so i could see how vibrations could facilitate mixing/reactions.

 

Randy, transportation and agitation definitely has an impact on hop fade of beers.

Below is what Tom Nielsen, Sierra Nevada’s senior research analyst focused on hop degradation states on this topic:

“According to Nielsen, agitation during shipping can be a significant contributing factor to degradation in aroma. As a beer sits on delivery trucks and eventually finds it way to your local liquor store, the beer’s aromas can be kicked up through the head space and slowly forced out of the crown liner, a process Sierra Nevada refers to as scalping. Nielsen also says oxygen will destroy hop aroma very quickly, whether naturally over time, or through the bottling process.

“We’ve found the hop aroma of a fresh beer shipped overnight from Boston compared to the same beer that just sat here in Chico was very much reduced,” said Nielsen. “This degradation doesn’t noticeably impact bitterness. But since aroma plays a significant role in your perception of taste, it can greatly influence your overall enjoyment of the beer.”

http://captainsbeerblog.com/2010/03/23/fading-hops/

I fully recognize and appreciate your discussion on dissolved oxygen and how oxidation processes impact hop fade but there are indeed other factors which have impacts (like agitation).

One fact which is indisputable as far as I am concerned is that an IPA that is fresh (a few weeks from packaging) will have more hop aroma and flavor than an IPA which is older. I re-learn this every time I brew an IPA (which I do 4-5 times a year).

As much as I respect the efforts that Sierra Nevada makes in packaging their beers I much prefer a Celebration Ale that is a month or so old vs. a Celebration Ale that is 2-3 months old. The 2-3 month old Celebration Ale is still a beer I enjoy drinking but just not as enjoyable as the 1 month old version. Just my opinion.

Cheers!

 

@Ranbot @cavedave @JackHorzempa

Believe it or not one of the virtues of buying beer a case at a time is that one has the luxury of tracking how a beer changes over time when that beer all comes from the same batch.

In that context I've learned that, for example, Troeg's Nugget Nectar is not, for me, at its most enjoyable fresh from the bottling line. During about the first two weeks after bottling it has a harshness or roughness that is almost unpleasant. Starting at about 2 weeks it hits, what for me is the "Nugget Nectar sweet spot" where the hop flavors loose their harsh edges and smoth out into an integtrated hop showcase that is full of enjoyable aromas and flavors of the hops. At about 6 weeks it begins to showly lose some of what I like most about the beer. I'll drink it at 8 weeks but regret that its a bit over the hill.

So I have learned from multiple cases of beers such as Nugget Nectar and Victory Harvest Ale that insisting on drinking the beer within a day or two of bottling isn't necessarily when I'll enjoy it the most.

BTW Jack, if you still have a bottle of the Harvest Ale left you might give it another try. For me this year's edition seems to have its sweet spot starting at about 3 weeks after bottling.

 

I drank one yesterday while watching football. The vegetal quality is still there; something that is not pleasant for my palate.

I was a HUGE fan of the Victory Harvest Ale last year. Needless to say I am not a fan of this year's batch.

Cheers!

 

Drinking a Harvest bottled 10/1. It's a very enjoyable beer it just is, but I'm not hearing fireworks go off. I think Burial Scythe is a Better beer, but it's obviously very different too. At $14 a 4 pk Harvest is a bit steep, but everyone needs to check it out at least.

 

I just drain-poured the last of my Hoptimum, which I really liked when it was fresh. It was really unpleasantly bitter. I still see plenty of it in my local bottle shop. I hope to buy some fresh next Spring.

 

I think I know which flavor(s) you mean and can see why it might seem unpleasant.

 

An insiders perspective....

If you want to know why there is so much old beer, just follow the incentives for the behavior that allows old beer to exist in the marketplace.

The Brewer

• During annual meeting with distributor, asks/demands a percentage of growth in the upcoming year. Most brewers ask for between 8%-50% growth for the upcoming year. Meanwhile, the brewer ramps up production or expands to meet this projected demand.

• The brewer does not set freshness goals, they set growth/sales volume goals.

• Certain growth must be achieved to fund debt obligations due to expansion.

• Brewery reps have volume/revenue goals for their territory. This is achieved by their distributor putting the most beer possible in every account they sell to. They provide additional incentives to achieve volume goals.

The Distributor

• If distributor consistently doesn't meet performance goals, suppliers can move to cancel the distributor and move to another. This makes additional brands harder to acquire for the distributor. Other suppliers may lose confidence in the distributor.

• To recover the cost of picking up 1 out of date case of beer, you need to sell an additional 5-6 cases.

• Few suppliers supplement the loss in revenue/profit for picking up and destroying old beer.

• State laws very with regards to picking up old beer. There are situations when the distributor can't legally pick it up. You can never just pick it up, it always has to be rotated with fresh product. Sometimes there is not fresh product at the warehouse.

• Sometimes the minimum orders from the brewery are more beer than the distributors' territory can sell.

The Sales Rep

• Paid on commission. The more beer you sell put in each account you sell to, the more money you earn.

• Depending on compensation structure, required to achieve certain volume goals by brand (think the 8%-50% goals from above) in order to unlock anywhere from 5%-40% of their total pay, generally called Pay for Performance (PFP).

• Provided with additional incentives (cash, trips, gift cards, clothing, electronics, luxury goods) funded by brewer and distributor for displays (total number of displays in territory, biggest displays, most creative displays, most cases of beer on the floor in key accounts), total number of cases sold, number of draft handles gained etc....

The Retailer/Consumer

• Retailers are incentived to sell more too. Store managers are provided bonuses for revenue/profit growth. They also don't like to dump money/old beer down the drain.

• Consumers frequently ask/look for new items and are much more likely to frequent stores with a large variety to choose from.

• Retailers frequently ask for new items to fulfill consumer demand. They purchase new items when available, prior to their existing inventory being sold. If they wait to buy, an item may no longer be available.

• Retailers must purchase new items or risk losing business to competitors who always have "all the new stuff".

• Often times retailers purchase new items and wait for a slow moving item to sell out before placing it on the shelf. I've seen plenty of new items sit in retailer back rooms for 2-3 months before finding a spot on the shelf. More often it's not that extreme, but sometime it is. Why should the distributor pick up old beer from a retailer who can't manage their shelves or inventory?

• It is hard to predict demand. Sometimes a retailer will buy 5 cases of a seasonal release and sell it in a couple of days. The next year, the retailer buys ups their buy to 8 cases and only sells two the entire season. It's an inexact science.

Basically, everyone involved in the whole chain is rewarded for selling as much beer as possible. Remove all of the incentives and free market forces to sell more, and you'll have plenty of fresh IPA's to drink. This is driven by everyone in the chain, especially the consumer. The result will be less consumer choice, more expensive beer, less brewery innovation and expansion, less dollars in your sales reps' pocket.....but you'll have your choice of a handful of fresh IPA's. Much less choice for less finicky styles....bye bye pricey barrel aging programs!


Happy Drinking Everyone! By the way, I'm drinking a super fresh IPA right now! I'm just as bad as everyone else!

 

Overblown. I hear everyone on this site talk about how Double Jack falls off after 6 weeks. Gotta call bullshit on that: i had a 4 month old bottle at a chain restaurant and it was glorious.

Also had a few more DIPA's that were 3+ months old that were very good: Summer Yulesmith and Lupulin River.

I think that certain beers that are designed to be consumed super fresh might be a different story (Pliny, Born Yesterday, Enjoy By)

 

Don't buy anything from TW that doesn't have a clearly marked and understandable date on the bottle or can and you should be fine. Shopping with the local guy is still always preferable if you can do it.

 

Not sure I'd say it's bullshit, a significant part of the 'fall off' is related to how the beer has been stored. A beer stored in a dark cold refrigerator is going to hold up a lot better than one that has been sitting on a store shelf at 70+ degrees. That being said, I won't buy IPAs over 2 months old, there are too many good ones to choose from and it's a fact that freshness matters.

Why is the 'local guy' preferable? I don't think you can safely assume the 'local guy' is always going to have fresher beer, you need to check the dates there as well. I can see instances where TW may buy a lot more of a certain beer than there is demand for and it ends up getting old on the shelf. At the same time, the local guy may get a smaller supply of said beer and is able to restock their supply more often and in turn possibly getting a fresher batch on the restock but this depends on what the distributor has in stock.

 

Echoing @stickboy1125 I agree if the local guy actually has fresh beer. Here it is often the opposite, with a good number of local mom and pop places having dusty bottles, and TW often has very fresh stuff and sometimes can't keep it on the shelves for more than a few days (like Sculpin which is either fresh, or the shelf is empty). There's a large price disparity too.

Buy fresh, I agree, but I don't think we should always assume one shopping setup is by default better than another.

 

Everyone's palate is different, what you like someone might not. I've had fresh Jack and it's a rarity to see it under 30 days old anywhere I've seen it available. I would think at 6 months it would still be stellar, but still any IPA is better fresher. I wouldn't buy 3 month old Jack though, I've had it and at that date and it had fallen off quite a bit. Obviously still drinkable, but too malty for what it's supposed to be.

 

I don't know if I buy the 35 day thing. I don't know how this works! I had a friend ship me some Union Jack and Double Jack and one of the cans of Union was SO F'N flat I couldn't drink it. However, the Double Jack's have all been spot on! And all were bottled in September.

 

The problem isn't two month old IPAs, it's two month old warm IPAs. We have empirical knowledge of what warmth does to hoppy beers, and yet there's every bottle shop with case stacks sitting out of hoppy beers.

 

The annoyance that comes from feeling like an ipa is old after a 35 day shelf life is THE definition of a first world problem.

 

Definitely a first world problem nmoore6. Couldn't agree more. Is part of this depending on everyone's palate? Some pick up the malty background that is left once the hops fade much easier than others. Some have higher tolerances for that, even subconsciously, and some have very low tolerances. The more beer and IPAs one tastes, the more the palate becomes sensitive to these things. A couple years back, I am sure all I was drinking was old IPAs, but now that my palate has become educated over the past couple years, I can tell very readily when hops have faded and malt comes to the forefront. Call me snotty if you wish, but I simply don't enjoy much IPAs that were bottled over 30 days earlier. It's a sliding scale as the days go by, but after drinking about 1,000 IPAs in the last couple years, I've found a personal preference of a cut off date where I will no longer buy it. It's all personal preference and preferences are starting to lean heavier in the direction of uber freshness. Breweries, distributors, retailers, reps, etc. will likely soon have to adjust to his. If they don't, their sales will drop. Simple realities at play here.

 

That may be the case for a number of BA beer drinkers. The craft beer market is much larger than the folks who post on BA; I wonder if the larger set of craft beer drinkers are refusing to purchase IPAs that are a few months old?

Cheers!

 

The joy of being able consistently nowadays to get super fresh very good to great quality IPA's is one of the best things about our country today. Or at least the northeast part of it.

 

Most IPA's are best within 90 days, longer if canned. I've have many of the same beer fresh, at one month, at two months and at three months. Sometimes the 3 months are the clear winners, often a touch more balanced than the fresh ones. After that they tend to go downhill, although not always.

35 days is a marketing gimmick, a good one at that. Except fresh hops, those by far taste better within the first month.