Old IPAs

Peter (@Peter_Wolfe),

Thank you for your thoughtful post.

It appears that packaged (bottled or canned) IPAs have a liner issue(s) as well as an initial packaged DO issue.

For the case of canned IPAs it seems that the liner issue is that the can liner will absorb hop aroma compounds that diffuse into the headspace.

The case for bottled IPAs seem to be affected by a ‘double whammy’: the same liner absorption issue that cans have (i.e., the cap liner will absorb diffused hop aroma compounds) plus oxygen diffusion through the cap liner (which will lead to oxidation/staling).

Sam (@bulletrain76) made mention of “…even the best crown caps let in around 1 ppb of oxygen per day into the bottle.” I suppose the part that needs to be emphasized in that statement is “even the best crown caps”. Since you mentioned “…we found (at AB) that a crown liner without any kind of O2 scavenger would let in about 7 ppb of O2 per day.” So, ‘regular’ crown liners are even worse at letting oxygen diffuse into the bottle (by a factor of 7).

I took note that Jim (@Starkbier) was skeptical of the best value of 1 ppb; I suspect that the more conservative value of 7 ppb will be even more disturbing to him.

It appears that bottling IPAs presents a number of challenges.

Again, thanks for all of the great information that you provided

Cheers!

Jack

 

Just to be clear; the headspace part is only pertinent to bottled beers. The can liner is everywhere in the can, so compounds able to diffuse into the liner can and will regardless of their headspace equillibrium. In a bottle, the crown liner can only be accessed via the headspace. That being said, can liners are much, much thinner than crown liners (but they cover more area).

 

Peter,

I would guess that it is a trade study analysis which would need to factor in the amount (weight or volume) of liner material and exposure to hop aroma compound.

I personally do not have the information but I would guess that the amount of liner material in a can is less since it is so thin (despite the larger surface area). Of course the can liner is exposed to more hop aroma compounds since the bottle crown liner is only exposed to the hop aroma compounds that diffuse into the headspace.

I am not smart enough to do this analysis but maybe some other BA could do this trade study analysis?

Cheers!

Jack

 

I didn't try them side by side, but my experience with a month and a half-old Heady was hardly "diminished," although I do think some of the fresh citrusy flavours turned toward a slightly more bitter hop profile. I don't imagine it getting much worse though, even after 6 months.

 

Everyone talks about Pliny fading fast. Holy Schitt. Here's the fresh IPA challenge. Find a Hop Stoopid *OR* Little Sumpin Sumpin within a week of bottling. Then compare it to the same inbetween 3 & 4 weeks. Lagunitas turns to off putting sweetness malt faster than any I've experienced. I love Lagunitas BTW but this is Fact.

 

I know it's a PA but I had the same experience with ZD in the last 2 weeks. Had one bottled in December that was better than one that was bottled April 18th.

 

Ive had Sailing Santa by St Arnolds, which isnt technically an IPA, but a mixture of their IPA and Xmas Ale. Ive had several vintages (and have also heard the same from other people), and the older it gets, the more the hops tend to shine through.

 

I live in the sticks, but even in T-town or OKC I rarely see any fresh quality IPAs on the shelves in liquor stores. The Founders All Day I bought was only a week old when it arrived, so that was nice. Next time I'm down there I'll stop and see what you have.

 

With a relatively new Krones bottle filler, we usually get TPO levels in the 30s PPB. We just commissioned a new KHS can filler which will hopefully get comparable numbers but this has been in the last couple days and I need to check on what the lab is getting.

Small can fillers (Cask, Wild Goose, etc...) are generally quite bad as far as oxygen pickup during filling, and this is what the majority of small brewers are using. The reality is that cans are much harder to keep oxygen out of, and small equipment for bottles, dollar for dollar, is better at producing lower oxygen levels in package. You really need to get to the top tier of can fillers to get oxygen levels comparable to decent bottle fillers. These fillers are very expensive and most breweries cannot afford them.

As far as crown cap ingress, the number I quoted was just thrown out by an equipment person, and I will defer to those with much more experience in that field. I think it probably comes down to how good your initial TPO level is; it it's already really high, ingress isn't going to be very significant. If it's low as can be, then ingress becomes significant. So a can with 40ppb TPO, properly seamed (ya, that can also be screwed p at the brewery--we have special equipment to measure the seal of the can seam), is going to be great over time compared to a bottle with comparable initial levels. If that can started with 400ppb or more, then the ingress factor ceases to matter much.

All that said, I've had plenty of horrible bottled IPAs and some good canned ones. Packaging quality is important but not absolute, and if you can get fresh beer, it barely matters unless it is of the charts bad.

 

Did an old-new A to B Heady taste today with the guy at my local. 8.21.13 vs. 4.29.14, I think it was. New was it's usual pop of citrus hop madness, crisp, and power self. Old one was a different beer entirely. Malty, almost musty, and definitely worth drinking, but just not what the newer version. My first real experience doing an aging taste test, and really fascinating.

 

A lot of figures are being thrown about but what is the actual significance? Clearly it isn't possible to get zero oxygen but at what level does it have a detectable effect and how much gives a significant effect? Parts per billion sound more like infinitessimally small amounts than problematic ones. As a cask ale enthusiast I don't throw my hands up in horror when oxygen is mentioned!
Back to the 137 year old bottles which were still drinkable. I also read of an 1875 Arctic Ale tasting in 2012;all this makes me wonder about the odd ppb a day!
http://zythophile.wordpress.com/2012/06/10/an-1875-arctic-ale-tasting/

There was no label left: the only clue to what it was came from the “1875″ in yellowed paint that was hidden in the deep punt in the bottle’s base. The cork, alas, fell to pieces as Chris tried to extract it, which led to some bobbing bits and fragments appearing in each glass: but the beer itself, bottled when Benjamin Disraeli was Prime Minister in Britain, when Ulysses S Grant was President of a 37-state United States, when the French Third Republic and the German Empire were each barely four years old, was in excellent condition.Amazingly, there was still a touch of Burtonian sulphur in the nose, together with a spectrum of flavours that encompassed pears, figs, liquorice, charred raisins, stewed plums, mint, a hint of tobacco, and a memory of cherries.

 

I noticed that the breweries were a bit silent on this matter. No Sixpoint posts or Sierra Nevada, etc. I realize that these folks spend millions a year on ensuring freshness, so a discussion about aging may be a bit of a left turn for them.
As a retailer, we also spend cart loads of money on proper storage, stock rotation and expensive shipping agreements to try to guarantee freshness.
Given our efforts towards freshness, a discerning consumer that demands new product, and the vendors and breweries all working towards preserving their product condition, the entire argument is curious.
Not wrong, not bad, just...ironic.
In the end, drink what you like.

 

When a brewer puts consume fresh on the label and makes a point it's not for aging, that's what they mean,the problem is deciding what fresh is if they do not date, or it's not local. I'd say 30 days or less as fresh as a reasonable number. Some guys enjoy malt bombs and muted hops, but that's not what the standard goal is for IPA's, which are supposed to be bright, fresh and amazingly hopped depending on the blend. For those who think its silly to be a date fanatic, again when Brewers start entering big brewing contests like GABF and enter6 month old IPA's then I'll listen, but until then I'll follow their lead and directions trying to get the freshest IPA's that I can find. Old stale IPAs are a drain pour for me, drinkable yes, but I won't.

 

I found an old OPA OPA ipa in a fridge that was broken down. I've been wondering whether it's a drain pour or something to try. I guess I didn't like the beer that much to begin with if the last of a six pack didn't get brought up to the kitchen fridge.

 

What's that? Doesn't Texas' ABC three tier law restrict retailers to only buying from licensed Texas wholesalers? Do TX distributors charged extra "shipping" fees to certain retailers?

 

I posted this in a thread as well. I actually emailed Kimmich after buying a bunch of Heady.. knowing I couldn't drink it all in a month at the time and he sent me a link of a video of him pouring and drinking a fresh off the line heady vs a year old heady and then discussing how well it held up... Do the slap you in your face hops diminish a bit??? yes probably but that doesn't necessarily make the beer any less delicious....JMO...

 

www.beerpulse.com/2013/04/why-to-drink-alchemist-heady-topper-out-of-the-can-and-other-questions-answered-video/

Not sure if this link will work but talks about aging at about the 3:40 mark...

 

I always love when that Kimmich interview is posted, cause no one ever quotes the other stuff in there, like:

"It will be a completely different beer as it ages"

"If you like your IPAs young and green, drink it right away"

"Sometimes I dont really love it till its been in the can 3 or 4 days"

"I find it best at 10 weeks old" (which is 6 weeks after canning)

 

But why do those quotes mitigate him saying it is just as great a beer a year out.. that is all I am posting it for.. not disputing it will change and will be more hop driven early on.. there are those however who thumb noses at a IPA a couple months old and for many that beer will still be fantastic..

 

When does he say its "just as good"? He clearly states he thinks its best at 10 weeks, which is 6 weeks from canning....and even sooner if you actually prefer the flavors of a young IPA.