Parodox Brewery

I wasn't sure. He only has 2 posts, so he might be a sly one. There ARE people with that opinion (or similar ones) when it comes to spontaneously fermented beers, but I'm not one of them. Time can change those beers, but that doesn't mean they can't taste/smell like a pediatric dumpster fire at certain points.

 

Haha, touché! I get that this post was tongue in cheek but I assume you're serious about the buttery flavor. I've had many beers that had serious diacetyl and it was very noticeable (for me). This was more cheesy like I said, which probably indicates some sort of infection. I've had de Garde fruit beers that had the same thing going on and other people had the exact same batch and said they loved it.

I guess my question is could something like this potentially get worse over time based on storage conditions or other factors? Or are these breweries releasing beers that are clearly flawed hoping they get better? I've heard diacetyl could fade over time but from the few times I've experienced this cheesy off-flavor, it seems to only get worse with time.

Sincerely,
A palate in need of education

 

Sorry, my sarcasm can be subtle, but Steve_0 is right. I just have a hard time when someone levels a fair criticism at a beer and the brewer responds with, "It's your palate, not my beer." I think the Paradox guy forgot to mention butyric acid in his explanation of why everything they put out is exactly as they intended.

 

I'd actually love to do (ar at least read) a Q & A with brewers like Troy Casey, Chad Yakobson, Lauren Salazar, and Jason Yester about different flavors that develop in spontaneously fermented beers and things that can affect those notes. We have some incredible experts in the area. It's one of those things I admittedly don't know all that much about either. I know and recognize what I do and don't like, but that's pretty much the extent of it.

 

Breweries like Paradox are ruining the reputation of American sours by putting out young, flawed beers and then claiming it's just the nature of the beast with wild ales and people just need to "train their palates." I would suggest that their brewers train their palates more. I've never had diacetyl bombs from Cantillon or 3F because they acknowledge the fact that there are times in wild fermentation when the beer is "sick" and it just needs time to clear up before it's released. Obviously Paradox doesn't bottle condition correctly either or there would be some carbonation on their beers. Not trying to hate, just my 2 cents

 

I can't speak on what Paradox is doing (only had a couple of their beers) but there are some very high profile and now beloved breweries that have done similar things to what was just described. It's one reason I'd like to pick the brains of some pros. Hell, I'd love to just give Jason Yester a few pints and ask him about the current state of American sours

 

So maybe I don't need to try training my palate more after all!

 

I think that first sentence is just a tad melodramatic. I'm curious, what was the last beer you had from them? They admitted to having lots of carb problems with their swingtops, and appropriately changed to bottles with thicker glass and solid caps. I haven't experienced a single issue with one of their offerings since that switch, nor have I ever purchased an infected/sick beer from them, and I try nearly all of their releases. Of course, I'm not saying you didn't have issues with diacetyl, lack of carb or anything else. I can't speak for your experiences. But it's a bit unfair to make broad stroke statements that border on slander. For what it's worth, Paradox has really started to be much more consistent.

Their bottles also clearly state the beers will continue to evolve - not improve or get better with age. There are several skullys just now hitting their peak that weren't half the beer when released.

 

I said "breweries like Paradox", eluding to the fact that they're not the only one, but they were the topic of this thread. I don't like it when brewers call into question peoples' palates instead of owning up to some flaws, which are inevitable with wild ales. Like I said, the main problem is rushing them out before they are "ready". You're right, I honestly haven't had their beers in a while, but looking at the picture and hearing the comments above there is obviously some issues still. I don't mind it when sours are under carbed either, but zero carb is different...

 

To be fair, dude posted "I've stated previously that I'm not a big fan of sour beers" and "I appreciate sour beers in a utilitarian sense- to cleanse my palate when tasting lots of big stouts and barleywines!" so I think @AIRMAN_PARADOX was fair in "encouraging" him to tune his palate. I was honestly thinking the same thing when I saw @ManBearPat's posts. To each his own but I don't think he intended to call out someones palate instead of owning up to flaws...

EDIT- if someone said the beer I made "tasted exactly like stomach bile," I'm not sure my response would have been so PC

 

I am well aware of the difference between good/great and awful sours, as do the people I drink with. The blueberry one got the same reaction from all of us- stomach bile.

 

Sour beers are a tricky thing. I had "Nightmare on Brett" aged in Leupold whiskey barrels. I did not like the beer. But that doesn't mean it was a bad beer either. I had to defer judgement to others and simple accept the fact that for me, it was not something I was going to enjoy.

My personal palate seems to prefer "mild" sours over intense sours. For example, I liked Jester King Sin Frontera better than Crooked Stave Sin Fronterra. I liked Paradox Deux Ans because it was moderately sour and smooth and delicious. Most of the Crooked Stave stuff I taste is too sour for my enjoyment, but it is highly regarded. So yes, while everyone is entitled to their opinions, those opinions can in fact be somewhat ... different since we all come from different places of taste, experience, background, etc.

Just look at your favorite beers on Untappd, and you'll see someone giving it 2 stars.

 

@johncmoore59 and @AIRMAN_PARADOX seem to have similar writing styles. "is currently drinking beautifully" was used by both. Maybe it's just a good phrase and I am reading into things too much.

 

When you create something for public consumption of any sort, you are opening yourself up to criticism. Its part of the business. You gotta have thick skin and not be so reactionary. Really you should be using the feedback to get better at what you do.

 

Agree with this completely. Easier said than done of course. I thought he did a good job of not being reactionary and "encouraged" continued tuning of the palate, which is something we all strive to do. Feel like I'm beating a dead horse now but when you preface your criticism of a product by saying, I'm not really a big fan of that style, it doesn't exactly hold water.

 

Just because you are not a fan of a particular style, doesn't mean you can't have an opinion that holds water (or stomach bile).

For example, I have know interest in sports cars, but I know a Lamborghini is better than a Miata. See how that works?

 

Obviously some people like sours more than others and everyone's palate is different, but diacetyl, dms, and butyric acid aren't enjoyable for anyone and shouldn't be present in high quantities in ANY beer, let alone one you pay close to $1 per ounce for. I think a lot of brewers want to cash in on the buzz of sours and wild ales, but don't want to take the time to do it right.

 

I have run into people that love diacetyl. We're talking 2nd-run movie theater smelling beers. It breaks my heart and scares me at the same time.

 

I thought #17 was absolutely horrible back in April, it was sickly sweet and nothing like I would expect from a dry hopped sour.

In July I tried #26 and it was closer to what I'd expect from the adjuncts, but I'm in no hurry to try any of the 5 that are currently on the shelf at my local store.

 

Yep....totally....
Granted, didn't you recommend Pateros Creek as a must-stop place in Fort Collins? just teasing.