Pastry stouts brewing advice

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by rxeight, Feb 20, 2018.

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  1. rxeight

    rxeight Initiate (0) Feb 5, 2012 Illinois

    Trying to nail down, what I guess has commonly become known as the pastry stout. Thick, super sweet, dessert stouts. J Wakefield stuff is my target.

    Have brewed a couple of batches using a mix of 80% 2 row and the rest a blend of chocolate, roasted barley, black prinz, (or whatever other dark stuff they have) caramel 120, and some oats. Lactose sugar. S04 yeast, although now have the equipment to do a big liquid starter. Gravity has been between 1.025 and 1.040. with a 90-150 m boil and a pretty light sparge.

    Getting close on the body but looking for more residual sweetness. Seem to get a bit of higher alcohols as well.

    Anyone mess with trying to create something like this? Anything else I should be looking to do?
  2. Prep8611

    Prep8611 Disciple (300) Aug 22, 2014 New Jersey

    What temp are you mashing at?
  3. rxeight

    rxeight Initiate (0) Feb 5, 2012 Illinois

    154* usually in the neighborhood of 1.1-1.15 qt/lb
  4. Prep8611

    Prep8611 Disciple (300) Aug 22, 2014 New Jersey

    I suppose you could mash higher and try it out. I would think that would lead to a somewhat higher final gravity. Admittedly I'm not an expert on making imperial styles cause I generally don't drink those beers.
  5. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (2,032) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania

    For more perceived sweetness:

    - Mash Higher (upper 150s)
    - Mash Shorter Time
    - Use a less attenuative yeast strain
    - Add more Lactose
    - Use more Crystal Malts
    - Use less bittering hops

    Regarding getting (unwanted) higher alcohols, the first place to look would be fermentation temperatures. Keep them on the low end. And that's the temperature of the wort itself, not the ambient temperature.
    GormBrewhouse and Prep8611 like this.
  6. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania

    I'd recommend this. Use either Irish or Scottish Ale yeast instead of the S04. Just make sure to ferment in the mid-60s to limit those fusels.
    hoptualBrew and GormBrewhouse like this.
  7. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,966) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin

    Are you going for additionally desserty additions? Chocolate, vanilla, coffee, cinnamon, fruits? I have no advice to offer, and am new to the pastry stout term. Just trying to gauge if this is what it is about.
  8. rxeight

    rxeight Initiate (0) Feb 5, 2012 Illinois

    Yes. Heavy adjuncts.
  9. GormBrewhouse

    GormBrewhouse Zealot (540) Jun 24, 2015 Vermont

    my stouts don't taste like pastry
    Prep8611 likes this.
  10. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania

    rxeight likes this.
  11. bryantc3

    bryantc3 Aspirant (206) Apr 12, 2017 New Jersey

    what kinda water profile are you using? Looking to make a vanilla/coffee/maple imperial this weekend and still not sure on a water profile for it. previously i used poland spring, but been building water from R/O lately.
  12. rxeight

    rxeight Initiate (0) Feb 5, 2012 Illinois

    I've always used RO water. Just now getting into to learning about water.
  13. rxeight

    rxeight Initiate (0) Feb 5, 2012 Illinois

    Reading up on different sources piecing together a few ideas - thoughts?

    - 10% Naked Golden in place of 2 row to get more sweetness
    - More caramel, less chocolate, roasted barley, black prinz etc.
    - Dehusked Caraf III to get the color
    - late addition of dark malts
    - D-180 for more sweetness
    - 1056 yeast seems to get me to the ABV I want
  14. bryantc3

    bryantc3 Aspirant (206) Apr 12, 2017 New Jersey

    your previous brews of pastry stouts just used R/O with no additions?
  15. anteater

    anteater Champion (821) Sep 10, 2012 Oregon

  16. chavinparty

    chavinparty Initiate (114) Jan 4, 2015 New Hampshire

    If you’re using extra crystal malt I would use c30-40. The last time I brewed my ris I subbed extra 120 to make up for c30 I didn’t have and it came out harsh. There was an article about the harsh malts in the last byo I read
  17. wasatchback

    wasatchback Devotee (414) Jan 12, 2014 Tajikistan

    Don’t use S04 or 1056

    Mash high

    Mash short (20-30 minutes)

    Ferment less than 64 for at least 48 hours

    Add a 162 mash step

    If using RO use lots of Baking Soda

    Use CaCl as your only Ca source, or at least most of it.

    Boil for longer

    Use at least a pound of something close to C40 (preferably English) (5g batch)

    Chocolate Rye

    Then adjunct as necessary... lots and lots of donuts
  18. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (2,032) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania

    How would that add sweetness?
  19. wasatchback

    wasatchback Devotee (414) Jan 12, 2014 Tajikistan

    It might not add sweetness but depending on the OG of the beer it will help to prevent the higher alcohols he’s referring to. Especially with S04
    VikeMan likes this.
  20. hoptualBrew

    hoptualBrew Initiate (0) May 29, 2011 Florida

    Less attenuative yeast for sure. WLP002 is 63-70%. That will leave a nice residual sweet body.

    - Less attenuative yeast (WLP002)
    - Mash high 158F
    - High OG (Im sure big JWB beers are around 1.140 OG)
    - Lower IBU (maybe 1:3 BU:GU)
    - Dextrins, protein grains

    A combination of these factors will yield you a thick beer. Just have to dial a combination of these factors in.

    I Just made a big 13.5% Barleywine w/ WLP090 that is sitting in a bourbon barrel right now, FG before going into barrel was 1.032.

    WLP002 is lower attenuation, but says alcohol tolerance is 10%. I've never tested this strain past 10%, so maybe others could chime in, as JWB big beers are typically 13% - 16% abv.
  21. telejunkie

    telejunkie Aspirant (253) Sep 14, 2007 Vermont

    for the higher alcohols, another trick could be to try to open ferment, pitch big and hit with O2 12 hours or so post-pitch and ferment on the cooler end of range. Co-fermentations could help as well.

    I'd be looking to add more lactose, medium crystal, dextrin &/or maltodextrin to boost viscosity and sweetness to hit my target FG and stick with your usual brew schedule and yeast. When you're going that big, you may really overshoot the moon in the wrong direction. My 2 cents....
    GormBrewhouse likes this.
  22. jcmmvp

    jcmmvp Initiate (0) Feb 24, 2017 Sweden

    SO how did it go? More info?
  23. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Poo-Bah (2,083) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Society Trader

    I did a batch mashed at 160, of was 1.120ish, fg was 1.050ish IIRC. The fermentation got out of control, and the beer was an Ester ridden fuel bomb. But it still pours like engine oil 4 years later. Brew Betty would say its diabeetus beer, but who cares?
    Eggman20 likes this.
  24. Bryan12345

    Bryan12345 Zealot (528) Mar 17, 2016 Texas

    I’ve made a couple mistakes in the last year or so that might help. I tried kicking up the ABV of a couple Belgians using table sugar (should have inverted it first, yeah). The yeast topped out at what turned out to be about 10% abv, leaving some raw sugar behind. Way too sweet.

    In your case, you might consider adding table sugar (or other should-be fermentanles) that you know is outside the range of your yeast. They’ll do their best, but they’ll die in their own alcohol before they metabolize all the sugar.

    FWIW :slight_smile:
    pants678 likes this.
  25. spookify

    spookify Initiate (0) Jan 29, 2018 Wisconsin

    What about be the fermentation schedule on something like this?

    For this example say I am using a "Temperature Range: 65-72° F Alcohol Tolerance: High" Yeast.

    Please Tweak my Example but looking for crazy detail haha!!!

    Fermentation Schedule:
    Pitch 65
    2 Days @ 65 (DAY 2) (48 Hours)
    Day 3 Ramp to 66 (DAY 3)
    1 More Day @ Ramp to 67 (DAY 4)
    1 More Day @ Ramp to 68 (DAY 5)
    1 More Day @ Ramp to 69 (DAY 6)
    1 More Day @ Ramp to 70 (DAY 7)
    X Days @ 70 (Max ??? Days)
    How Long do we Ferment with Adjacent;s? 21 Days?
    Check Gravity for Completeness Cold Crash & Keg when Fermentation Complete (Yes - Gelatin)
    #25 spookify, Sep 12, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2018
  26. spookify

    spookify Initiate (0) Jan 29, 2018 Wisconsin

    Sorry for the Double Post but totally separate question:

    Brewing a 8 Gallon Batch (Pastry Stout with Target 1.140 OG) and wondering "When" and how much Lactose I should use?

    Follow up question what is Maltodextrin and how do I use it or should I?
  27. pants678

    pants678 Savant (955) Jan 26, 2009 California

    I've done 2.5oz per gallon with 10mins left in the boil. I wasn't shooting for pastry stout but definitely came out with sweet.
  28. spersichilli

    spersichilli Aspirant (293) Apr 26, 2018 California

    Some info from Angry Chair:
    -They use Conan for all of their beers (including their stouts)
    -for their pastry stouts, they’ve stated that they use 70% base malt and 30% specialty malt

    Also for J Wake, he’s stated before that most of his big stouts have an OG around 1.140
    Scope4Beer likes this.
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