Persistant, subtle infection?

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by TastyAdventure, Mar 18, 2014.

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  1. TastyAdventure

    TastyAdventure Initiate (0) Nov 13, 2012 Kentucky

    I have several batches under my belt now and about 6 batches back I started having a few reoccurring issues that make me think I might have an infection that does not make itself known loud and clear by the obvious terrible off flavors. I'm not sure.
    I have been using LD Carlson Easy Clean Powder for sanitizer, is it possible it can not kill something that Star San usually does??

    Anyways, I have been mashing very high (158, even 161)(thermometer is calibrated) and still get 80-82% attenuation on multiple yeast strains.
    I have not had any gushing bottles though...
    Last batch, and my current one that's been in primary for 3 days, have both put out a sulfur/egg smell from the airlock, but last batches gravity sample just before bottling tasted great!
    These past 6 batches I have observed a slightly off flavor, the only way I can describe it is I believe it's coming from the yeast, it has that kind of taste. I am aware that this MIGHT be from ferm temp control. I do swamp bath method and would say its been doing alright for me.

    Are there other kinds of infections other than those described in How To Brew?

    Any theories on the cause of my problem are welcome. Thanks.
     
  2. OddNotion

    OddNotion Pooh-Bah (1,915) Nov 1, 2009 New Jersey
    Pooh-Bah

    Doesnt really sound like an infection to me.
    Sulfer smell is a normal by-product of fermentation which is more prevalent in some strains over others.

    What yeast strains are you using?
    What do your recipes look like?
    Are you pitching enough yeast? Is it healthy?
    Can you describe the "off flavor" in more detail?
    Are you brewing all-grain? or is any extract added to any batches?
     
    mugs1789, surfbouy and JohnSnowNW like this.
  3. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2013 Minnesota

    I agree with OddNotion.

    I will also add that you should just start using StarSan as your sanitizer. I honestly can't think of a reason why anyone would need to use anything other than StarSan.
     
    skivtjerry likes this.
  4. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    Had a brett infection that I eventually used bleach to cure.
     
  5. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2013 Minnesota

    Well, I meant that more in a "before you get an infection" sense.
     
  6. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    I wasn't sure. But even then that was with fanatical sanitation practices on my part. I usually use pbw to clean, star san for sanitizing and anytime I use bugs I use bleach on all of it.
     
    surfbouy likes this.
  7. TastyAdventure

    TastyAdventure Initiate (0) Nov 13, 2012 Kentucky

    Thanks JohnSnow. I will be getting it next trip to LHBS.
    And OddNotion, I've reused old yeast for 4 of the last 7 batches. (Two recipes i reused yeast for did not have the off flavors, maybe one it was a robust and hoppy Brown ale, one also had plenty of flavors to cover the off flavors from yeast?)
    i reuse yeast by shaking up my yeast cake after siphoning, and pour through a sanitized funnel straight into a sanitized glass beer bottle. I cap that bottle and put it in the fridge. When it comes time to brew, I make a starter out of that bottle, so there is new, healthy yeast.... But this method might be the culprit?? This current batch I used brand new yeast so we shall see what comes of it!

    I did 3 partial mash and then my past 6 have been all grain, and pretty my all of my recipes don't have anything crazy in them. Sometimes I use DME to boost my OG if I missed my efficiency. I can't think of anything with my AG process that would produce off-flavors... It's straight forward and I've done my homework.

    I'm wondering how picky yeast is when it comes to temp changes. Can a gradual change of 2 degrees up and down make a noticeable difference? Swamp bath isn't the most consistent...

    Can anyone explain the 80-82% attn though?? It's driving me crazy cuz I'd enjoy a batch or two with some real body...
     
  8. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Initiate (0) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    A lot of different sanitizers will work...bleach, Idophor, Trichloromelamine, Starsan....yada, yada, yada...for anyone kegging though, Starsan is the way to go, IMHO.
     
  9. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2013 Minnesota

    You will not regret switching to Starsan.

    As for your apparent attenuation, the most likely cause is inaccurate measurements. This does not mean you've done something wrong, but most measurement equipment has a broad degree of accuracy. This of course isn't a definitive answer, but the probability is high.
     
  10. mattbk

    mattbk Savant (1,111) Dec 12, 2011 New York

    The more times you reuse yeast, the more chance of a detectable infection. That is, you are picking up bioburden (wild yeast and bacteria) from the environment during every manipulation. Eventually you will get enough to detect off flavors in your beer.

    However, still not sure this is an infection. Clarify what the flavor is you are detecting, folks on the forum should be able to chime in to help determine if this is what it is.

    You will also need to describe the types of grain bills and yeast strains you are using to get your 80-82% attenuation. You are right - it does sound high - but need to check this to ensure it is indeed something out of the ordinary.
     
    surfbouy likes this.
  11. OddNotion

    OddNotion Pooh-Bah (1,915) Nov 1, 2009 New Jersey
    Pooh-Bah

    This is info I was hoping to get. If he is using WLP001/Wyeast1056 and has low to no crystal malt then 80% is not out of the realm of possibility at all... @JohnSnowNW brings up a good point about accuracy of measurements too though.
     
  12. surfbouy

    surfbouy Initiate (0) Mar 17, 2014 Oregon

    I think I had the same thing going on with my recycled yeast. It usually wasn’t enough to take hold in my main batch, but my parti-gyle would show more of the flavor defects.
    Since then, I’ve learned to make a larger starter with the original vial/smack pack and save a portion of that pure yeast for my bank. It saves the worry because it keeps out more of the excess funk. No further problems.
    Like the others have said, the sulfur from your primary is normal. My kids call it beer toots.
     
    TastyAdventure likes this.
  13. TastyAdventure

    TastyAdventure Initiate (0) Nov 13, 2012 Kentucky

    My grain bills typically have about 10-15% specialty grains, with about half of that being crystal I guess. I've used WLP005, 001, and Super San Diego recently.

    I'm sorry I just can't think of how to describe my off flavor. It tastes a little "yeasty." I need a veteran to taste it. Sometimes in some batches I get a little alcohol heat, even if its 6% abv
     
  14. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    “Sometimes in some batches I get a little alcohol heat, even if its 6% abv.” That sounds like higher alcohols (fusel oils) to me. If the fermentation temperature gets a bit too high for a given strain of yeast, excess (perceptible) amounts of higher alcohols can be produced. The common descriptors for excess fusel oils are: harshness, hot.

    Some people get hangovers if their homebrewed beers have too much higher alcohols.

    Cheers!
     
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  15. TastyAdventure

    TastyAdventure Initiate (0) Nov 13, 2012 Kentucky

    I am able to keep my temps below 68 without a problem. Could some heat also come from fluctuating, but still lower, temps?
     
  16. OddNotion

    OddNotion Pooh-Bah (1,915) Nov 1, 2009 New Jersey
    Pooh-Bah

    68 in the swamp cooler or 68 at the actual wort temp during fermentation? Your wort will likely be 5-8 degrees over ambient temp during peak fermentation.

    What temp are you pitching the yeast at?

    Some of what you are describing sounds like it may be discussed in this article: http://byo.com/recipes-tag/item/182-beat-yeast-bite
     
    mattbk likes this.
  17. sjverla

    sjverla Initiate (0) Dec 1, 2008 Massachusetts

    If all you can describe it as is as 'yeasty', then perhaps it's something with your bottling/pouring practices? I used to just pour the whole bottle, dregs and all, cause I didn't think it mattered or that I cared. Well, then I tried pouring more carefully - there was a definite difference.

    Maybe you're drinking a lot of yeast?
     
  18. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    As was mentioned by @OddNotion, the critical temperature is the actual temperature of the fermenting wort (not the ambient temperature). What is the temperature of your fermenting wort?

    Cheers!
     
  19. TastyAdventure

    TastyAdventure Initiate (0) Nov 13, 2012 Kentucky

    Thanks for that article! Very helpful! I think I will go back to racking to secondary if I ferment for more than 3 weeks. Heck, for most strains I should probably just bottle after 3 weeks. (I've been doing 4 weeks for all my batches.)
    I'm also going to start cold crashing for more than 24 hrs.
    I also need a fridge dedicated to brewing! I keep my bottles at room temp 71 F. According to the article I should keep them in the fridge once they're carbed.

    Btw, I usually pitch at 66-68. The beer in the fermenter never gets above 70, according to my therm sticker.
     
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