Pilsner Hate

Consistency is a must, those dedicated to a particular product won’t settle for anything else. The big brewers are wonderfully consistent, and there’s no guessing here. I don’t need to check brewing dates either, they turn quickly. That said I had some nicely fresh FW Pivo Pils a week or so ago, perhaps the best Pils I’ve ever had, and in this class freshness really counts.

 

Thanks @drtth @JackHorzempa, thanks for the clarification on that. In both cases, how come a lot of American grass pilsners continue to taste hardly anything like the German versions, tasting much grassier and like cracker? Does it come down to mashing and the way these beers are hopped?

 

I will just say that on the Ayinger tour they stress that they use 4 malts for their lagers (wheat malt for German wheats). Those malts are Pils, Munich I, CaraMunich, and Carafa. Sinimar is also used for color adjustment. Decoctions is used for Wheat beers and Dark beers (Dunkel ). They are a Low O2 brewery.

 

GLBC uses a process similar to decoction in their Oktoberfest. The brewhouse isn’t set up for decoction, so there’s a special way the mash is manipulated to emulate that effect. And I think it really makes that beer stand out among other American Oktoberfests and have a rich, deep, yet dry flavor with even some lightly savory bready nuances.

If anything, I wish decoctions were still more common and experimented with more modern styles.

Wondering if I just dreamt this, but isn’t Pilsner Urquell something like triple decocted? Do they still do that?

 

You don't have to love pilsner but if you don't drink pils at all and claim that NEIPA and Barrel aged stout are the best beer in the world then yes I am gatekeeper. It's not bullshit, it is common sense. Also in my opinion.

 

Of course, that last bit about the old brewmaster telling the new one "Don't change anything, don't change anything..." Well, that hasn't always worked out.

 

Hmm. Guess you really pick up on that subtle fruitiness in Kölsch to stand it out from Pilsner. However, there are a few really nice Pilsners that will give you a similar character from hop use, rather than yeast or fermentation temp.

 

I can understand a Pils NOT being someone’s favorite style, I understand they might prefer more aggressive beers, and that’s fine. But there’s absolutely no way you can label an entire style and this particular style as a shit beer. Like most styles some beers are better than others, but I’d dare someone to show me a fresh Pils of any flavor that was really subpar. Can’t say the same thing about some Ipas, or BA Stouts, IMO of course.

 

I'm sure there are Pilseners I'd like, just haven't made it a quest to find them. They must find me. Not sure why I like Kölsch's better, but I do.

 

If you can find it fresh:
https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/39/184287/?ba=steveh#review

 

One could put it in big bags to sell at Costco.

 

As I already posted in this thread (post #104):

"Decoction mashing is still common in the Czech Republic. For example Pilsner Urquell is triple decoction mashed."

Cheers!

 

Can you provide a few examples here?

Cheers!

 

Mostly DC area beers, but Hardywood Pilsner, DC Brau Pils, and Manor Hill are what I have mostly in mind.

 

When it comes to German Pilsners I mostly drink SEPA area beers. I am pretty sure that I had Hardywood Pilsner on draft a few years ago and I vaguely remember enjoying that beer. I visited the Hardywood website:

“Pils

German-Style Pilsner

Crisp, clean and incomparably quaffable, Hardywood Pils sparkles a brilliant shade of gold with a rich, cloud-white head. Hand crafted with only the finest European pilsner malt and German noble hops, Pils is patiently conditioned for weeks in our lagering tanks, maturing into a beer that refreshes the palate and satiates the soul. This classic pilsner is the quintessential lager beer in its purest form, brewed in strict accordance with the Reinheitsgebot Law. Hardywood Pils is a nod to old world tradition offered by the innovative brewers at Hardywood. Prost!”

Yup, what I read above is consistent with my memory (albeit vague) of this beer.

Why you think that Hardywood Pilsner is “grass pilsners continue to taste hardly anything like the German versions” is a mystery to me.

Cheers!

 

This might actually deserve its own thread but it seems on topic here at the moment so why not.

I understand what the process of decoction is, but I never really understood what that process was meant to achieve. So I did some googling and found what seems to be a pretty good description of things:

https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/zW1F0j4QG6/

The main gist seems to be that "The boiling of the grains helps to destroy the cell walls and makes the starches more accessible to the malt enzymes". Hopefully that's correct (if maybe oversimplified).

But here's where things get hairy, the article also says this:

"Decoction mashing is a traditional and intensive method of mashing. While the method was once used by most breweries, today decoction is a controversial topic among brewers. Many German brewers (among others) claim that it develops malt character, depth, and superior foam. Others feel that it is a waste of energy and time, and is unnecessary now that modern well-modified malts are available to everyone."

Yikes. I don't recall ever reading anything to that effect here on BA when decoction is brought up. It always seems to be presented as basically sacrosanct and an unconditional positive (ETA: apart from the simple fact that it costs more to do, that is).

Can anyone shed some light?

 

Tradition can have lots of flavor when one knows the source of what one is drinking.

 

"Cooking" is probably a better description than boiling -- a mash never gets to the boiling point, that comes in the next step.

A lot of brewers have followed the latter course and stopped a lot of their decoction brewing. Maybe others can't tell the difference, but I've noticed a change in body and flavor with these beers.

One of the stories I head when this practice first started was the brewer saying consumers couldn't tell the difference because of those modified malts -- sort of discounting his customers IMO.

 

Cans of Lawson's Sip of Sunshine and Super Session [#2 - I think] occasionally appear on SEPA shelves now too.... just FYI.

 

So is decoction overlooked for paler beers like Helles and Pils? From what I’ve read here and elsewhere, it seems to be an important part of making Vienna and Dunkel lagers. Do the darker malts benefit more from decoction than pale ones?