Pilsner malt

Jack, I think what @Tebuken might be alluding to is the yeast used (probably a lager) that might leave a little more perceived sweetness/maltiness...unless you compared 2 different ones side-by-side. Certainly any other specialty grains might have a similar effect.

 

This is interesting! I have used the exact same pilsner recipe with two different Bohemian pilsner yeasts (Wyeast 2124 and Wyeast 2278), each with the same final gravity, yet one (WY 2124) always comes out quite noticeably sweeter. It also greatly magnifies the specialty malts (e.g. melanoidin) much more than the other.

Why is this, if the mashing temperatures and final gravities are the same? How can yeast provide more sweetness and magnify other tastes?

 

Magic ...I think it might have to do with how much sulfur is produced by a particular strain and...well...they're different. Different interactions with ingredients is what keeps homebrewing interesting.

 

As you have alluded to above there must indeed be some "magic" involved since every lager yeast strain I have used (about a dozen) have yielded low final gravity beers for a grain bill like that used for a Pilsner style beer.

Cheers!

 

I was hoping someone might be able to point me to an in-depth study - for example, do some yeast strains leave more unfermentable sugars than others, what type of unfermentables, why, etc.

 

Timely that this came up. I recently ordered a sack of Swaen Pilsner malt and a sack of Swaen Light Munich. I'm glad to hear a vote of confidence. Have you tried the Light Munich?

 

I went to their website and don't see either of those

 

Yes

natural and unnatural selection?

 

I found it on their website. It just took awhile. You have to select brewing malts then another subsection. I ordered off labelpeelers. Pretty darn cheap with each sack coming in at a little over $50 including shipping.

 

OK, found it along with "Lager Malt", which seems even lower L (but not sure about their L ratings...guess I'll use a EBC to SRM cheat sheet...2:1 I think) Thanks

 

Lager malts have often been cited as better fermenters of maltotriose than ale yeast. Maybe variation among lager yeasts in their ability to ferment maltotriose impacts perception of sweetness? I'm skeptical because people apparently have limited capacity for detecting sweetness in maltotriose. I spent under 10 minutes googling about this. One of my links is to a Wikipedia article. As you can see, I have become quite the authority. You might want to take this with a grain of salt, which likely is more perceptible to your taste receptors.

 

I'm quite serious. I notice a SIGNIFICANT difference in apparent residual "sweetness" between the two yeast strains, as well as perception of specialty malts, although they are both recommended for Bohemian pilsners. I have to modify the ingredients and mashing temperatures in order to come up with similar results. I had a long discussion a few days ago with another homebrewer, who also noticed the difference after I pointed it out to him. Although we are aware that different yeasts produce different tastes, we were unable to determine why the sense of sweetness would be so different, and why the magnitude of taste of the specialty malts would be so exaggerated with the one strain. Perhaps the two are related - the extra sweetness might accentuate the taste of the specialty malt.

 

My tongue in cheek/skeptical finish to my response was not intended to dismiss your perceptions. It was meant to cast doubt on the my own ideas. Sometimes I latch on to a hypothesis perhaps a little too strongly, so I wanted to remind everyone that any insights gleaned from few google searches shouldn't be considered a thorough explanation/

I believe you are serious and I have no reason to doubt your perception. I used the Czech strain once and the Bohemian strain never. But I have noticed difference in lager strains; they just haven't revolved around perceptions of sweetness, to the best of my memory. In fact, I compared the Czech strain to a dry yeast (34/70) in a split batch study. I preferred the liquid yeast but liked them both. The split batch was many years ago, and I would be hard pressed to explain my preference now.

One random thought. Would you recognize diacetyl if you tasted it? Could it be that one strain is throwing more diacetyl than the other, and this is playing with your perception? That's even more of a hipshot.

 

I recently joined a group that tried eight different off-flavors. These off-flavors were greatly exaggerated so that the flavor could be easily recognized. One of those off-flavors was diacetyl, and this sweetness in the Bohemian yeast was certainly not due to diacrtyl. It almost seems like a regular sweetness, as one would get if one were to mash at, say 152 F rather than 150 F. However, as I mentioned both beers were mashed at the same temperature, and both had the same final gravity. If there were more unfermented sugars in one as opposed to the other, I would have expected the final gravity to be different. Thus the perceived "sweetness" is a true mystery. Both of these beers were Pilsner Urquell clones, so any difference in taste would be quite noticeable. I also tried a Bohemian Pilsner with the 2124 yeast and found it to be relatively sweet as well, even though the final gravity was quite low. The 2278 always comes out much drier and crisper, with less body feel.

(I hope I haven't strayed too far from the subject of this thread).

 

I doubt I could detect a sweetness difference between these mash temps..

 

It's MUCH more noticeable in pilsners than in other beers such as ales.

 

Another thought. I was listening to the latest brewing network podcast today (sunday session) in which they interview the heir/brewer of Augustus Schell. I just got to the point where he's discussing their two American lagers, Schell's Deer Brand and GrainBelt. He adds that they use a lager strain derived from the Tuborg strain for one lager and the other uses a lager strain derived from the Carlsberg strain. Apparently all modern lager yeasts are derived from these two strains. I don't know what it really means, other than there could be genetic reasons why you see differences.

 

Maybe some beer industry folks could provide some insight on how specific lager yeast strains can emphasize the aspects of sweetness in Pilsner beers?

@Sixpoint @sierranevadabill @bergbrew @erway @Starkbier

 

but don't almost all lager strains lack ester production when fermented cool?
The 2 strains mentioned (Bohemian and Czech)... neither produces a lot of esters...but one does have a lot more sulfur...just say'in