Pilsners!

herrburgess,

I don't know how long it's been open for sure, but I think less than 2 years.

My favorite is the Neat, no carbonation removed therefore little or no head/lacing. Bitter and dry, what you'd expect from a good Pilsner.

The version (the Creme) with about 25% of the carbonation transferred to the head is also good, for me. I kid you not, the head on this baby is a beauty...and it lasts. (This is Pilsner Urquell we're talking about here.)

The Sweet, virtually all head, I don't like.

I forget the name of the remaining 4th version, half head half beer.

The bigger the head the less carbonation in the beer, making it "sweeter" (ie, less bitter).

The beers, except for the Sweet, come in 2 sizes. The big one is $10 and comes in those big bulbous PU mugs, they hold a substantial portion of beer. Worth $10 IMO. The beers are always fresh and cold. They have a glass panel in the floor in front of the bar so you can see the kegs of PU lined up for service. A superior beer location in Manhattan.

The food is good, but it's pricey and the portions are on the small side.

If you like Pilsners I don't think you'll be disappointed.

KP

 

Heh -- I don't know if it's "precise," but I've seen it used and I think BA definitions even use it as a descriptor.

 

I have to say this is my favorite thread of 2012 so far. There should be a list for best pilsners available in the US by people who know what they're talking about. This way we don't get hundreds of threads with responses consisting of only "Prima Prima Prima Prima Prima."

 

You mean like these three guys who don't know what they're talking about re: Prima Pils?

 

During none of those reviews did they describe Prima as a classic example of a German pilsner. The third review mentions Germany once, and I read it as a nod to how the hops stand out in this beer. I love the beer, and many beer enthusiasts do, but that's not what I'm talking about. By no means am I an expert in pilsners, but I just traveled to Germany this fall, and no pilsner came even remotely close to being as hoppy as Prima.

 

Did you read hopfenunmaltz’s post: “The ones of today are actually dumbed down and are not as crisp and assertive as they were 14 years back when I lived in Germany, or to the 80's when the brewers at Victory were doing their travels in Germany. I was just back in the Vaterland and even Jever did not have the intense dry and bitter finish it had when I lived there.”

As you can read above, he just got back from a trip to Germany,

Cheers!

 

As American beers such as APAs and IPAs have become more hoppy, the German Pilsners have become less hoppy.

From the Oxford Aompanion to Beer, page 388, article on Geman Pilsners authored by Conrad Seidl.

"IBUs in 1973 average for Pilsners was 34 with a extreme examples at 50 IBUs (hey guys - that is Prima), low of 16 IBUs"

"Date from 2008 indicate an average of 26. IBUs and a high of 37 IBUs and a low of 13 IBUs."

"the German brewers themselves have allowed the snappy hop character of Pilsner to erode."

When I lived in Germany Jever was said to be 44 IBUs and tasted like it. Now not so much, nore like the 37 he talks of.

Prima may have its place for a reason.

 

Yep, and I responded to that exact post. Again, I'm not an expert, and I can't claim to know how hoppy pilsners were in the 80s. That being said, year in and year out there's threads saying "X beer isn't as hoppy as it was last year." And that's from year to year. I don't know how much stock I can put in someone's memory of hoppiness from 25 years ago.

 

The data I posted above from the OCB was from the VLB, a German beer research institute in Berlin. Reported data were for IBUs whigh is an analytical measurement. They test hundreds of beers each year, and if you look at the data, well that should be enough.

Also don't confuse bitterness with hop flavor and aroma.

 

I've read this on here before, and it's great historical info so we don't have to rely simply on memory. Even still, Prima being that hop-forward would not be considered the norm, even then. SNPA for example is quite hoppy to the average beer drinker (excluding hop heads) and that's only 37 IBUs. Personally, I don't like my pilsners to be dominated by hops, which is why I'm biased in this argument. I love Sierra Nevada Summerfest (listed as Czech Pils I believe) which is a pilsner coming in at 28 IBUs, more in line with what's going on in Germany today.

 

I'm not, I realize IBUs do not tell the whole story of how hoppy a beer is. But when discussing beers from 20 - 30 years ago, the only concrete numbers we have is IBUs.

 

“I don't know how much stock I can put in someone's memory of hoppiness from 25 years ago.”

Well, I personally put a lot of “stock” in what hopfenunmaltz has to say.

I am guessing that you are a person who will play who just likes to “play devils advocate here.” but there is other documentation beyond what hopfenunmaltz states in this matter.

This trend is documented in The Oxford Companion to Beer: In 1973 the average German Pilsner have a bitterness of 34 IBUs, in 2008 the average bitterness was 26.5 IBUs. I don’t know what the average would be 2012 but I am confident that it is even lower than 26 IBUs.

From the book: “In the style guidelines for the prestigious World Beer Cup competition, German Pilsner is still defined as having 30-40 IBUs, but the German brewers themselves have allowed the snappy hop character of pilsner to erode.”

Cheers!

 

I enjoy Torch from foothills brewing and Mama Lil Yellow Pils by oscar blues.

 

Sierra Nevada PA has not changed much over the years. It does not win many medals these days as it is not hoppy enough, as the style has become what IPAs were not so long ago.. http://www.sierranevada.com/beers/paleale.html

Some of the German Pilsners are not so big in flavor and aroma. Jever is in this group, it used to have just a hint of hops in the aroma and flavor, but a bracing bitterness that would linger on the back of the tongue, and was very dry. Not so much these days.

The Koenig I used to drink had much more flavor and aroma, not as much bitterness as Jever.

Prima may not represent the norm in the old days, but it would have been in the range. Just like Zombie Dust is not in the norm, but is an APA because it is in the range.

 

I'm definitely playing devil's advocate. From Victory's website. I doubt they modeled Prima after pilsners from the 70s, seeing as they didn't even visit Germany until the late 80s, and Prima wasn't even in their original line-up in 1996. I won't refute the facts mentioned here, and trust hopfenenmultz knows more than I do about pilsners. And it definitely appears it's within range for pilsners. Although I still believe Prima isn't a "classic" example of a pilsner, and is too hoppy for what I want from this style. At least by today's standards.

• Victory was founded in 1996 in Downingtown, Pa. by Bill Covaleski and Ron Barchet. They met on a school bus in 1973 when they were in the fifth grade.
• The original lineup of Victory beers was HopDevil Ale, Victory Festbier and Brandywine Valley Lager.

 

And just to contradict myself, the BJCP guidelines for a German pilsner pretty much describes Prima Pils, and supports it being within the range, albeit at the higher end of the range (IBUs 25 to 45).

Crisp and bitter, with a dry to medium-dry finish. Moderate to moderately-low yet well attenuated maltiness, although some grainy flavors and slight Pils malt sweetness are acceptable. Hop bitterness dominates taste and continues through the finish and lingers into the aftertaste. Hop flavor can range from low to high but should only be derived from German noble hops.

 

wow! this pilsner thread really took off.... and i can see why... right now I am enjoying my 5th staatliches hofbraushaus original

 

“ …trust hopfenenmultz knows more than I do about pilsners.” There we go, something we have in common.

Cheers!

 

Ah, but your post to which I responded only mentioned "best pilsners available in the US"- nothing about "classic" or "German".

 

Ha, I can't argue with that.