Pliny-Type Double IPA

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by hoptualBrew, Jun 14, 2018.

  1. hoptualBrew

    hoptualBrew Zealot (586) May 29, 2011 Florida

    Going for it! Getting a bit tired of NEIPA.

    8.5% abv
    131 IBU (theoretical)
    5.1 SRM

    85% 2-row
    8.5% Table sugar
    5.7% Carapils
    0.7% Honey Malt

    Mash 150F

    Boil: Columbus, Simcoe, Centennial
    Dry Hop in two stages with leaf hops
    DH1: Amarillo, Simcoe, Centennial
    DH2: Simcoe

    Yeast 1056 @ 68F

    Water: RO + Salts
    Ca 100 ppm, Cl 50 ppm, SO4 250 ppm, Mg 20 ppm


    Excited about this one moreso than any batch recently. Thoughts?
     
  2. Mothergoose03

    Mothergoose03 Poo-Bah (2,214) May 30, 2005 Michigan
    Premium

    If that is the Pliny clone recipe that is available in this forum as well as other places on the Internet, you'll love it. I've brewed it once and it turned out very well. I think this year I'm going to try the Pliny the Younger clone since I don't have any hopes of ever trying that beer.
     
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  3. Push_the_limits

    Push_the_limits Initiate (30) Feb 8, 2018 Antarctica

    Yeah, I'd be excited too. I like beer with such a low SRM, with all that punch. will be a surprising one. Not sure what actual IBUs in Pliny beers are, but probably not much less than your theoretical? Also curious how you created the Pliny-like recipe.. Only thing I would personally be worried about is the dextrose. Personal preference as always. What's the math... is it a little less than a pound?
     
  4. VikeMan

    VikeMan Meyvn (1,462) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania

    131 "theoretical" (Tinseth) IBUs translate to a whole lot less actual IBUs. I'd estimate something in the high 70s. There are two things working against the 131 number. First, the upper limit to the IBUs you can get is about 110, due to solubility limits. Second (and more importantly from a practical standpoint), above about 65 Tinseth calculated IBUs, the theoretical utilization curve fails, and needs to be replaced by a much flatter one. (Not Glenn Tinseth's fault - he never tested those kinds of levels, and (probably) didn't envision the kind of hopping that's done today.) Each IBU above about 65 gets more expensive in terms of hops needed than the previous IBU.
     
  5. jricharc

    jricharc Initiate (185) Feb 16, 2012 Virginia

    I am waiting for mine to finish at the moment. I added my first round of dry hops this week, I did 1.5oz of Columbus, 1oz Centennial, & 1oz Simcoe. Next week I will add 0.5 Columbus, 0.5 Simcoe, 0.25 Centennial, & 0.25 Amarillo and transfer to the Keg hopefully next weekend.
     
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  6. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Meyvn (1,381) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan

    In Mitch Steele’s book he said the Stone tested it at 65 IBU. When FW was guest brewing it , when RR was replacing the brew house, @bulletrain76 said they also got 65 IBU IIRC.

    I had a couple of glasses last year in CA, and it didn’t seem as bitter as when I first had it long ago. Brewers do adjust their beers over time.
     
  7. thebriansmaude

    thebriansmaude Initiate (56) Dec 16, 2016 Alberta (Canada)
    Trader

    I brewed a Pliny the Elder homage not too long ago. In brewcipher my predicted Tinseth IBUs were 202, 'modified' Tinseth (which I believe takes in to account what @VikeMan mentions above) were predicted at 86. IMO it came out right in the 80 -90 ibu range based on other very bitter beers I have tasted.

    My advice would be to not be shy about boil hops - I did a 4oz FW addition, which felt insane, but also awesome.
     
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  8. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Crusader (713) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    definitely no honey malt...even a small amount, imho
    fwiw, brewing something like a Blind Pig shortly
     
  9. fuzzbalz

    fuzzbalz Disciple (313) Apr 13, 2002 Georgia

    The last few times I made it I used Hop Shots (extract) for the bittering charge, and the rest of the hops at the end starting at about the 15min mark. Using the hop extract helps cut down on the wort loss.
     
  10. hoptualBrew

    hoptualBrew Zealot (586) May 29, 2011 Florida

    Why is that? In place of the crystal 45 I've seen in other clones...
     
  11. wasatchback

    wasatchback Aspirant (266) Jan 12, 2014 Utah

    Pliny

    17* Plato
    Rahr 2 Row
    2% Simpson’s C60
    Sugar
    70 IBU (actual, not Calc I believe)

    90min boil
    Warrior/CTZ @90
    Amarillo Extract at 45
    Simcoe at 30
    Whirlpool: Centennial, Simcoe, Cascade, Am

    CTZ, Cascade, Simcoe DH1
    Amarillo, Cascade, Simcoe, DH2
    Always pellets

    Slightly higher CaCl than CaSo4 actually. Not overly hard water profile

    Vinnie is adamant about getting as much yeast out of the beer as possible before dry hopping as well..
     
  12. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Crusader (713) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    It's a different animal than most crystal/caramel malts...closer to melanoidin or aromatic. 0.7% isn't a lot, but I would be more likely to use a Pale Ale malt/5% very light Munich and normal 2 row
     
  13. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,649) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Premium

    I brewed my version of PtE a couple of years ago and I was very pleased with how it turned out:

    SG: 1.071
    FG: 1.012
    Briess Pilsner Malt
    5% Briess 20L Crystal

    90min boil
    CTZ at 90
    CTZ at 45
    Simcoe at 60
    Whirlpool: Centennial, Simcoe, Amarillo (1 oz. for Centennial and Amarillo & 1.7 oz. Simcoe)
    Dry Hop: CTZ, Centennial, Simcoe, Amarillo (1 oz. each).

    I dry hopped once all signs of fermentation were complete for a duration of 14 days.

    I fermented with US-05.

    I will be re-brewing this beer.

    Cheers!
     
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  14. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Crusader (713) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    I think it might be our palates are changing...which means the beers are changing...never mind :confused:
     
  15. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Meyvn (1,381) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan

    It wasn’t that long ago that Vinnie said Pliny was 95 IBU from testing. Steele’s book came out some time later at 65 IBU in testing.
     
  16. telejunkie

    telejunkie Aspirant (237) Sep 14, 2007 Vermont

    I'm wondering if Vinnie was talking about the bottled beer or the wort going into the fermenter...I could see before fermentation and dry hops (maybe even post-fermentation using chico) getting 95 IBUs...but not after dry hops.
    Most of the research I'm seeing brings most all moderately-high dry hopped beers into the 55-70 IBU (tested) range no matter how much hops the beer saw in the boil/whirlpool.
     
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  17. runbirddrinkbeer

    runbirddrinkbeer Initiate (143) Oct 24, 2009 Florida

    The Northern Brewer variant that I've done as a kit and since sourced from LHBS 5 or so times comes out nice. No honey malt. Uses 2 row, carapils and carastan. Also .75 lb corn sugar( table sugar is fine also). Crazy good fresh West Coast IPA, nice to have on tap regularly.
     
  18. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Meyvn (1,381) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan

    That I’m not sure about, as he never specifies when it was tested. I also know that wort can be well over 100 IBU measured.
    https://appellationbeer.com/blog/how-many-ibu-about-one-hundred/

    This is where I got the 95.
    https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/0000/6351/doubleIPA.pdf
     
    #18 hopfenunmaltz, Jun 15, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2018
  19. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,649) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Premium

    Dave, is there a reason for this? Why does dry hopping 'decrease' the IBUs?

    Cheers!
     
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  20. wasatchback

    wasatchback Aspirant (266) Jan 12, 2014 Utah

    There’s a great MBAA podcast on this very topic. It’s a worthwhile listen
     
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  21. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,649) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Premium

    Thanks for that tip. I listened to the podcast and it was stated that high(er) bittered beers would experience a reduction in iso-alpha acids with high dry hopping rates. But later in the podcast (at around 12:00) he stated that the IBUs go up with increased dry hopping (but perceived bitterness was lessened).

    So, it appears that with high dry hopping rates the IBU value is increased vs. decreased.

    Do you have a differing understanding?

    Cheers!

    http://masterbrewerspodcast.com/004-dry-hopping-its-effects-on-bitterness-and-the-ibu-test-0

    @telejunkie
     
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  22. Buck89

    Buck89 Poo-Bah (2,268) Feb 7, 2015 Tennessee
    Premium Trader

    Last year, I emailed Vinnie to confirm the Zymurgy recipe that listed 3.5 oz of Columbus at 90 minutes (6 gals). Such a great guy - he replied the same day:

    "That is correct, there is a very large hop charge at the beginning of the boil for a firm, crisp bitterness which is a cornerstone of PTE. Regarding the high BU, keep in mind there is a difference between calculated and analyzed. A BU calculator does not take into the account the loss of efficiency and utilization as more hops go in. However, all the additional hops are still contributing flavor, aroma, and sometimes polyphenols. We use so much bittering hops in PTE we actually use hop extract which is basically concentrated hops. This eliminates much of the green matter from the hops but also gains us wort as we limit our losses."
     
  23. wasatchback

    wasatchback Aspirant (266) Jan 12, 2014 Utah

    I believe they also adjust their boil PH to not extract as harsh of a bitterness.. or at least did
     
  24. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Crusader (713) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    I've had so many tactical NEIPAs lately, that Pliny seems less awesome, but still in strategic fusion territory :flushed: cheers all
     
  25. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,649) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Premium

    Barry, you are indeed an enigma wrapped in a riddle!:confused:

    Cheers!
     
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  26. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Crusader (713) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    Not really...just inebriated, cheers, Jack
     
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  27. hoptualBrew

    hoptualBrew Zealot (586) May 29, 2011 Florida

    What do you mean? They acidify their kettle collection prior to boiling? From my understanding a more alkaline pH extracts more bitterness and harshness from hops.
     
  28. wasatchback

    wasatchback Aspirant (266) Jan 12, 2014 Utah

    Lowering the PH by adding acid would make it less alkaline..
     
  29. hoptualBrew

    hoptualBrew Zealot (586) May 29, 2011 Florida

    @wasatchback , I understand that lol. My question is: is my understanding of pH and hop correct? More alkaline wort yields higher isomerization rates, but also more harshness from hop?
     
  30. hoptualBrew

    hoptualBrew Zealot (586) May 29, 2011 Florida

    And to add on to that... is this a practice that helps round out heavily hopped beers? Acidify the preboil wort for a rounder hop character?
     
  31. wasatchback

    wasatchback Aspirant (266) Jan 12, 2014 Utah

    Lower PH will result in a less harsh bitterness but yes less extraction of alpha acids.
     
  32. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Meyvn (1,238) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado

    Is there a known blind pig clone? Blind Pig is waaaay better than Pliny.
     
  33. Mothergoose03

    Mothergoose03 Poo-Bah (2,214) May 30, 2005 Michigan
    Premium

    :open_mouth: You just go and wash your mouth out with beer!! :scream:
     
  34. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Crusader (713) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

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  35. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Meyvn (1,238) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado

    mmmm bitter....
     
  36. NeroFiddled

    NeroFiddled Poo-Bah (10,307) Jul 8, 2002 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    I'm curious about the sugar. Does anyone know if Russian River is actually using sugar in it? I can understand why they would use the sugar, but at the same time it's not a monster beer at 17 Plato.
     
  37. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Crusader (713) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    Plinys yes...lightens the body somewhat also
     
  38. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,649) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Premium

    Jim, you might be interested in reading what Vinnie wrote concerning the fermentables for PtE (with emphasis in bold by me):

    “Obviously hops will be your primary concern when building a Double IPA recipe. But before we talk hops, let’s talk malt and yeast. In my opinion, the malt bill for a Double IPA should be simple. It doesn’t need to be anything more than two-row malt, Carapils (dextrin) malt, crystal malt, and possibly some acidulated malt. Beyond that, I highly suggest you use some dextrose (corn sugar) in the boil to help bump up the gravity. Not only will the use of sugar help bring up the gravity of the wort, but because there are simple sugars that the yeast can ferment straight through, you will end up with a lighter bodied beer. This is of course purely up to you; I personally like to drink a Double IPA that is light in body thus allowing the hops to plow through the overall flavor profile of the beer. If you like more body in your Double IPA, I would suggest you replace all or some of the sugar with more two-row malt to achieve an abv around 8 to 9 percent.”

    https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/0000/6351/doubleIPA.pdf

    When I brewed my version of a PtE I thought it would come out dry enough without the utilization of sugar and I was correct here (for my palate).

    Cheers!

    P.S. As to whether Vinnie uses sugar at Russian River to brew PtE my guess is that he does based upon his strong verbiage above.
     
  39. hoptualBrew

    hoptualBrew Zealot (586) May 29, 2011 Florida

    @JackHorzempa , another bonus for sugar is increased gravity without gaining SRM. Nice to see 8% abv DIPA in the 4-5 SRM range.
     
  40. jricharc

    jricharc Initiate (185) Feb 16, 2012 Virginia

    Just transferred mine to the keg, I cannot wait to try it. I upped the dry hops by a few ounces so I am hoping its got some great aroma.
     
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