Poll: Ale or Lager?

Is it irony, irreverence, or a love of the tradition of thumbing our noses that leads you to make sweeping generalizations about a culture you have never experienced?

 

I rely upon what you and others report.

Now here's one for you. Why does it make any difference to you, or Europeans, at all what and how we drink here?

 

So you first reverence our perspectives before you thumb your nose at them?

Because beer is a social beverage and anyone truly interested in a nation's/region's beer culture will want to at least try to drink what the locals drink?

 

Ales it is! Wouldn't have it any other way

 

I'd almost agree, except for the instance of bourbon - the various regulations in place regarding what can and cannot be labeled as bourbon, the incredibly centralized nature of bourbon production where 95% or so is still made in Kentucky, the way a significant portion of the bourbon-drinking crowd will scoff at the notion of anything produced outside Kentucky being labeled bourbon, the way other countries have different regulations around what may be labeled as bourbon, and so forth.

I'd say there's at least the seeds of a Köln-esque tradition and reverence growing within the US right there.

 

Americans generally don't go for tradition for tradition's sake. Until someone, you, or anyone, can give a practical reason for the reverence you feel for traditions, i.e. how those traditions create better...anything, for folks other than the local, homogeneous conclaves in which they are kept going.

Do you think Americans should, or even can, do as Germany does here in our multivarious culture? It sounds like you do. If not, why do you argue your points? I ask again why it matters to you or anyone what we do here? (yes I discounted your answer earlier as nonsense talk)

 

I understand that there was a time when ale was a pale English beer and stout was a dark English beer...I don't think anybody is arguing the origins of these words. There was also a time when beer and ale were considered two distinct things based on hops or no hops. So, using "ale" for any hopped beer is also historical nonsense. Definitions change, and words mean whatever the majority of people understand them to mean. Maybe it just means that Americans and some Brits will always define "ale" differently. Personally, I fail to see how Kolsch is somehow diminished if people call it a lagered ale. For me, it only lets me know what variety of yeast was employed for primary fermentation and doesn't at all imply it is similar to a pale English ale.

 

This is an entertaining thread.

And the answer is lagers are better, all the time, every single time, without exception, since the creation of the world and for all of eternity.

 

From a brewing standpoint, I have grown to revere German brewing traditions for a number of reasons -- after having trusted U.S. brewers' perspectives on why things like decoctions, protein rests, spunding, etc. are "no longer necessary" and having found the absolute opposite in my own experience. From a cultural perspective, I revere the traditions because they are open not just for the individual nor just the "local, homogeneous enclaves" but for any and everyone who visits them. And the beers are both wildly divergent and multifaceted as well as invariably well-made...and delicious!

Do you mean what German brewers and beer lovers actually do (i.e. embrace a huge variety of styles while privileging and protecting things like regional traditions and local loyalty), or do you mean what you interpret German brewers to do (i.e. limit their styles and cling slavishly to outdated mores)? In the former case, yes, Americans would do well to emulate such things (as long as the beer is invariably well-made); in the latter...well, I already answered that: we already do it.

But if you're again just going to discount my answer(s) as "nonsense talk," then there truly is no point in discussing this further.

 

Well, that solves it then. If I were to drink what the locals drink I'd have Adjunct Lagers more often but otherwise be drinking pretty much what I drink now. But I steadfastly refuse to become like the majority of Craft beer drinks and drink mostly Adjunct Lagers with occasional craft beer in the line up.

 

So I should expect that a trip to Philly would lead to my drinking a lot of Yuengling and a good variety local German-style beers? Good enough for me...

 

Ale. However, I am in Jack's Abby territory, and they brew
excellent lagers.

 

Gotcha. So, if I understand your argument properly, it's more that it's okay for the regular joes to drink kolsch and nothing else, because they're from Cologne, and that's what people from Cologne do. But for the American beer nerd, they're held to a different standard, and should be expected to have a better command of the history/tradition/details of beer styles, because they are drinking, basically, for a different reason than the average Joe, right? Fair enough, I suppose.

Although, the logical extent of your argument is that everyone -- Europeans, Americans, or otherwise -- needs to quit it with the cracks on American adjunct lagers, because that's what 90% of the population drinks. You won't find a bar without them. Bankers drink them, beggards drink them, punks drink them, hipsters drink them. You can get them at your favorite dive bar or a high end hotel. Give me your average backyard barbecue, tailgate, party, etc., and AALs will be there. Frankly, it's a big part of the American beer culture. To that end, any effort to judge it, per your prescriptions, is unjust and denies its cultural context.

 

Can't speak for @Lurchus, but I, for one, would say that, yes, we should stop with all the AAL bashing (as well as with much of the heavy-handed attempts to avoid being mistaken for brewing one) and instead try and revive "traditional" AALs like classic American pilsners (and similar variants) in order to revitalize that culture that has been dumbed down by the conglomerates.

 

Agreed! I've heard different things about its origins, but I understand that the cream ale is commonly considered an American invention. If so, I'd love to throw that in there too. A local joint makes an absolutely delightful one w/ (gasp!) flaked corn that has the delicious essence of cornbread. Great stuff.

 

Gonna depend on where you choose to go. Some places local means German and US German Style, some places it means Belgian and US Belgian Style, and someplaces you ask for a lager, you'll automatically, without question be handed a Yuengling.

 

Ale yeh!

 

I am coming to this ‘party’ late (been away and not checking BA regularly).

Lots of ‘interesting’ discussion in this thread!

Just a few comments:

Cheers to @breadwinner for his numerous well-reasoned posts!!

The poll results at this point in time are 86% for Ales and 14% for Lagers. These poll results confirm my notions that BAs generally much prefer Ales to Lagers. Lots of folks opined on why US craft beer drinkers do not think to highly of lagers and I agree with the idea that it is a ‘reaction’ to BMC type beers (contemporary AALs).

@Sixpoint posted: “Perhaps if we had more breadth and variety of lager beer, the results would be more evenly matched...” In Southeastern PA (SEPA) there is a very good selection of high quality craft brewed lagers (plus plenty of European imports) yet the majority of tap handles at beer bars are devoted to ales (APAs, IPAs, DIPAs, Imperial Stouts, Belgian Ales, etc.). IMO the ‘prejudice’ of US craft beer drinkers are playing a role here despite having high quality lagers available.

Shane, of your core beers (i.e., Sweet Action, Bengali, Crisp, Resin), what is the percentage of sales of those four beers? Where is Crisp in those sales volumes?

Cheers!

 

When you get "first-named" you know Big J is onto something serious

 

I see it as more of a consumer protection provision, so that the end user will have some sort of indication that they are getting what they expect, but it's not all that uncommon as the Bourbon example shows. DOC wine, Cognac, VPN Pizza- there are all sorts of examples, so extending the concept to beer isn't that far of a stretch.

Once upon a time, even the Oregon Brewers Guild considered utilizing a certification that their beer was indeed brewed in Oregon, and that was in reaction to Jim Koch's Oregon line of beers.