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Potential Bad Trader: @dabrees

Discussion in 'Bad Traders' started by Slack, Apr 10, 2019.

  1. Slack

    Slack Champion (872) Feb 14, 2012 Virginia
    Trader

    All, here is my experience with the subject trader.

    We started discussing a trade in late November and came to an agreement shortly thereafter.

    Me
    Coconut Bomb b1
    CW 18, 19, 20
    CCBomb 15, 16, 17
    Extras

    Them
    Balaton
    Alaskan Pipeline
    Cookie Butterface
    AB Noir x2
    Snickerdoodle

    They requested the trade wait until finals were completed and I agreed.

    The conversation continued with them stating they had knocked over the Alaskan Pipeline and would replace it with BA Christmas Bomb which I agreed.

    Over December the conversation continued with non trade topics and I reconfirmed the trade before I headed out of town for the holidays. They agreed and stated they would have to wait until January 12 due other trades taking longer to complete.

    When I returned, I reached back out with some Aslin cans and we expanded to include 3 Aslin stouts for 2 bourbon paradise. We exchanged contact information. I confirmed their address and contact number and shipped the first week of January. Note that a trade request was sent (and ultimately cancelled). They received the box safely.

    I followed up about a week later with them on shipping and they stated they hurt their shoulder. We discussed this aspect given my own history with impingement.

    I followed up again about 2 weeks later 1/31 and they responded regarding the freezing temps and throwing extras in.

    Received an update on 02/07 about going to the Okie Paradise release and including this in the box.

    The conversation continued to 2/19 when Apple of My Pie changed to Bye Bye Baked Apple Pie and the inclusion of another BA Prairie bottle which I agreed to.

    3/08 and another query on shipping with an addition of Okie Paradise, a second Bye Bye Baked Apple Pie, and a change of BA Christmas to Double Barrel Noir with a confirmation of shipping tomorrow.

    3/13 and a message regarding being delayed due to work with free time the following week and the inclusion of another extra.

    4/04 last message from me stating they must shipp by 4/15

    Now I am aware that this is premature given my last message and the deadline therein but in my haste I did not notice this person has not been on this site for 3 weeks.
     
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  2. MattOC

    MattOC Aspirant (295) Jan 13, 2013 Massachusetts
    Trader

    flat_lander, FBarber and jrnyc like this.
  3. Sabtos

    Sabtos Poo-Bah (5,988) Dec 15, 2015 Ohio
    Society Trader

    Premature? Closing in on a half year!

    I understand you were okay with shooting the shit and all that, but you seem to have extensive trade history here. I would think you'd want to lock things down earlier and get a commitment to ship. After two months I would have either ended discussions or requested immediate ship.

    Either way, he should have sent you the bottles originally agreed to, and the replacements at this point, and then some, IMO.

    Way too many excuses given over way too long a period of time. Bad trader in my book.
     
  4. John_M

    John_M Moderator (6,299) Oct 25, 2003 Oregon
    Society Trader

    I thought that name looked familiar. Sigh.

    Ideally, it would certainly have been better to have waited until 4/15 to post this, but at this point, at the very least, I think we would all like to hear some explanation from @dabrees as to what's going on here.

    At least in the prior thread, I think he eventually made good on his trade agreement, so I think there's every reason to hope for a good outcome this time around as well. On the other hand, given his history, I would probably be pretty leery of trading with @dabrees, and would insist that he ship first if I was involved in a trade with him.
     
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  5. jrnyc

    jrnyc Meyvn (1,085) Mar 21, 2010 New York
    Trader

  6. Sabtos

    Sabtos Poo-Bah (5,988) Dec 15, 2015 Ohio
    Society Trader

    Yeah, I feel like I've seen a number of traders with less than 100% simply due to non-completed trades lately.
     
    jrnyc likes this.
  7. jrnyc

    jrnyc Meyvn (1,085) Mar 21, 2010 New York
    Trader

    Feedback system needs an enhancement to include a field to provide the link for a bad trader thread. Sketchy traders are getting off the hook to easy, what is the point of a feedback system if it is not helping informing people of traders they want to avoid. Dabrees behavior that resulted in that thread has gone to the next step and OP is getting screwed.

    @Slack Did you look at their feedback? Did you notice the OK rating? Did you take it to the next step and search for a bad trader thread?
     
    Sabtos likes this.
  8. Slack

    Slack Champion (872) Feb 14, 2012 Virginia
    Trader

    At the time (December), I looked at their completed trades summary and it being 100%, I was comfortable moving forward. I did not go into reading feedback as I have found it to be repetitive and less than 100% rating is essentially a pariah.
     
  9. Slack

    Slack Champion (872) Feb 14, 2012 Virginia
    Trader

    I like to give the benefit of the doubt here as life gets in the way of beer trading. We all have more important things than sending a box out and I have had previous trades take upwards of 2 months but the other party was open with the situation and was committed to completing the trade. This trade appeared very similar and the other party committed to the trade several times and was responsive.
     
  10. FBarber

    FBarber Poo-Bah (2,692) Mar 5, 2016 Illinois
    Society Trader

    Im going to second this. Neutral feedback should reduce the rating below 100% - not as much as negative, but to some extent. Otherwise whats the point of even having neutral feedback?
     
  11. jrnyc

    jrnyc Meyvn (1,085) Mar 21, 2010 New York
    Trader

    Unfortunately for you, during your whole escapade he exhibited some pretty bad behavior in another trade.
     
    FBarber likes this.
  12. Slack

    Slack Champion (872) Feb 14, 2012 Virginia
    Trader

    And that's on me as I did not check the Bad Trader's Forum. Hindsight...
     
  13. jrnyc

    jrnyc Meyvn (1,085) Mar 21, 2010 New York
    Trader

    Beer advocate needs to make it a lot easier for feedback system to include this information in the feedback itself.
     
  14. jrnyc

    jrnyc Meyvn (1,085) Mar 21, 2010 New York
    Trader

    Especially since dabrees has a 100% feedback rating, the same as people who do nothing but flawless trades.
     
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  15. flat_lander

    flat_lander Devotee (469) May 11, 2016 Illinois
    Society Trader

    After a few dicey trading experiences, I've now made this part of my standard protocol with a trader I haven't worked with before: Check feedback for anything neutral or negative, search the BT and Trade Talk threads (sometimes they start there, but don't get moved to a BT Thread). I've even had a few times where something seemed off, so I look through their previous traders and see if we have anyone in common and double check on their experience before deciding to move forward So far, that's kept me out of this place.

    Sorry to hear about your experience and hope you get made whole. We almost made it 3 months without one of these threads.

    Always curious to see if the BT in question is reasonable or comes out all guns blazin' with the life got in the way/it's just beer/you all need a life asshat trifecta. And we wait...
     
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  16. flat_lander

    flat_lander Devotee (469) May 11, 2016 Illinois
    Society Trader

    When you look through his feedback I see this recent one, "Everything was fulfilled as agreed upon." That's not the type of statement I'd leave if I was really happy with my trade partner. These are the kinds of red flags I look for.
     
    FFFjunkie, maximum12, Sabtos and 2 others like this.
  17. MattOC

    MattOC Aspirant (295) Jan 13, 2013 Massachusetts
    Trader

    Certainly @Slack could have waited until the deadline date he gave to post this, but given the timeline and details he provided I doubt a few days is going to matter.

    I applaud @Slack for his patience, but so many things about this were maddening to me regarding @dabrees

    - Knocking over a bottle. Yes, accidents happen, but once I agree to a trade, said bottles are put in a safe place until I can package or are packaged that day to avoid accidents.

    - The whole waiting for other trades to finish before being able to complete the one they had going. That would drive me mad. Too many variables and possibilities of things going wrong if dabrees was waiting on bottles from other trades to fulfill his trade with Slack.

    - The changing of the bottles often and Slack always being a gentleman and always agreeing to it.

    - Too many excuses: finals, other trades, broken bottle(s), swapped bottles, injuries, shipping delays (repeated). Blah, blah.

    Too much nonsense. Given Slack's experience and the other thread about dabrees, I would not trade with him.

    Lastly, I know it's "just beer" and life trumps trading, but if you can't fulfill your trades in a timely manner, etc., then maybe take a break from trading until you get everything else sorted out.
     
  18. bigda83

    bigda83 Initiate (134) Feb 13, 2014 New York
    Trader

    Not to mention, wasn't drinking or breaking the bottle the same excuse in the other BT thread for @dabrees ?? I'm being lazy and not looking, but I remember that thread well and could have sworn that was also the excuse. Maybe I'm just too careful myself, but idk how that happens.
     
    FBarber likes this.
  19. MattOC

    MattOC Aspirant (295) Jan 13, 2013 Massachusetts
    Trader

    I read through it quickly again and didn't notice that. Based on that OP's info and dabrees responses there, it was more of the same - shipping due to weather (legit), but mostly too busy, doesn't prioritize trading, a lot on his plate, playing the victim (smearing his name)....

    Of course, since he hasn't been on in a few weeks, hopefully he is okay. With the semester nearing an end (figure he is in college/grad school per the finals reason mentioned above) and hopefully weather getting consistently better, he can make good on the trade with Slack.
     
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  20. bigda83

    bigda83 Initiate (134) Feb 13, 2014 New York
    Trader

    Must have been another recent one. My old brain wasn't working right haha. I agree with you on the whole back and forth and back and forth on this. I'm surprised the OP was as nice and agreeable as he was. Seems like a stand up guy so the BT needs to make it right. It appears he may be ghosting now because the profile said last login was 3 plus weeks ago now.
     
  21. Slack

    Slack Champion (872) Feb 14, 2012 Virginia
    Trader

    Honestly gents, I appreciate all the feedback here and am grateful for the communities concern. Let me know if you need any further information or have any questions.
     
    jrnyc likes this.
  22. John_M

    John_M Moderator (6,299) Oct 25, 2003 Oregon
    Society Trader

    I'll mention your idea in the new features/improvement thread started by Todd last month (as well as your suggestion about "OK" feedback not affecting/impacting one's feedback rating/score).

    Just my two cents, but I continue to feel the biggest flaw in the feedback system is the human element. My impression is that many traders encounter the sort of scenario described by the OP (unexpected delays, communication problems, promised bottles/cans swapped for something else when - for whatever reason - the trade partner is unable to provide the beer originally promised). As long as they eventually get their beer, no matter what difficulties they may have encountered along the way, they typically take the easy way out and leave positive feedback. I'm not sure what can be done about that.
     
  23. rozzom

    rozzom Crusader (790) Jan 22, 2011 New York
    Trader

    +1 for an overhaul

    The current set up is very millennial. “Oh you’re a flawless trader? Ok you can be 100. Oh you refilled some assassin empties with FBS and rewaxed them? Don’t worry worst case you’ll be a 99.”

    I know there would be lots of objections. But really I think every trade should be rated on a number of criteria. Say 1-10 for communication, timeliness, extras (where applicable) and packaging. And the best of the best, the delta force of traders would be 100. Trading with them you know you’d be getting flawless communication, packing and shipping (and great extras if applicable). In the 90’s you’d be considered very strong. 80’s solid. 70’s on down you would need to approach with caution.
     
  24. Yabu

    Yabu Aspirant (235) Feb 4, 2015 California
    Trader

    I just noticed, the trader only had 2 trades at the time. And those were from Nov & Dec 2017.

    That's not a stable trader. He's still a few new trader. Honestly, you should of asked him to ship first.

    On BA I have 44 trades under my belt, but I've only made 1 trade in the last 11 months. If a trader asked me to ship first, I wouldn't have a problem, provided his history is sound.
     
    odcardinal likes this.
  25. maximum12

    maximum12 Poo-Bah (4,017) Jan 21, 2008 Minnesota
    Trader

    I think in a world of beauty & perfection, we'd have a system of 1-100 or 1-10 ratings for every trade. But in the real world, the human element would cause a system like this to be embroiled in madness in short order.

    We can't even agree on what's positive & what's neutral feedback. Imagine the first time a trader who thinks he's great gets a "7" on packaging because the recipient doesn't like that they included a box of pasta to cover "sloshing". Now multiply that by 25 times per day. The amount of conflict based on subjective numbers would be enormous.

    Anyways, sorry for drifting this further off-topic. Back on, after two bad trader threads, I can't believe this guy's trading career isn't finished here. It should be.
     
  26. rozzom

    rozzom Crusader (790) Jan 22, 2011 New York
    Trader

    Like with any change I’m sure there would be initial pain. Maybe people could have the ability to dispute a rating or something (would require photographic evidence or whatnot - actually would probably promote best practices all round to keep people on their toes). After up and running though I’m sure it could be generally self-policed. If you got the rep as the anally retentive guy that gives low scores for everything, you’d quickly lose trading partners.

    I dunno. Just an idea. Either way this 99/100 thing needs to go (and that’s like the best case - a lot of times people need to comb through a 100 score trader to find the little idiosyncrasies that identify a sub par trader)
     
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  27. FBarber

    FBarber Poo-Bah (2,692) Mar 5, 2016 Illinois
    Society Trader

    Two things. First, I love this idea. Rating on different factors would be really beneficial and would allow people to have a better feel for what to expect from their trading partners. maybe someone is great at everything but communication? Well now you can see that more clearly if the feedback is broken down.
    Second, if that system were put in place, the community as a whole would have to understand that there could still be good traders who have ratings below 100% ... Not sure how that would play out, but I could see it being a problem at first that would take some time to even out.
     
    rozzom likes this.
  28. stevepat

    stevepat Zealot (526) Mar 12, 2013 California
    Trader

    @FBarber and @rozzom, I brought the idea up in the desired improvements/upgrades to trading thread. I think it would be great if you guys could take your ideas over there. There's some serious logistical issues with expanding the ratings system but I think that if we all put our pints together we can come up with some reasonable improvement in that direction and I think the staff is actually watching that thread
     
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  29. eppie82

    eppie82 Meyvn (1,180) Apr 19, 2015 Illinois
    Trader

    I kind of like the way Lyft/Uber does their rating and feedback, where you can't see your own rating/feedback but others can. Maybe fashion that model into the Beer Advocate so that the traders leaving feedback don't have to feel 'uncomfortable' if the trade experience wasn't smooth.
     
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  30. FBarber

    FBarber Poo-Bah (2,692) Mar 5, 2016 Illinois
    Society Trader

    Thanks for point that thread out - Haven't been doing any trading since the new year so I haven't been following the trading threads other than the occasional bad trader thread, so I totally missed it.
     
  31. 4truth

    4truth Aspirant (241) Jan 30, 2015 Illinois
    Trader

    Hope the BT is OK, first and foremost.

    If so, I'd have to say slapping a "BT" label on his account is warranted at the very least. OP's patience is beyond which what any human being could be expected. The only reason I can see to even let BT stick around is to make the OP whole - along with many, many hard to find extras. Not bottles of Christmas Bomb.

    A 100% rating with two separate BT threads exposes the weakness of the system but also the hesitation by many to rate accurately. As @rozzom said, even Bad Traders get trophies these days or their sweet little feelings are hurt. Then, as we've seen to much amusement on these threads, they often go on the attack. I love those. What times we live in. And to think I used to send surprise killer boxes to trading buddies not because I wanted something in return, but because it made me feel good.

    Sorry you're dealing with this, @Slack. It's garbage.
     
  32. FBarber

    FBarber Poo-Bah (2,692) Mar 5, 2016 Illinois
    Society Trader

    Frankly, given the story here, I think a BT tag immediately is warranted. If he comes here and somehow explains the whole situation satisfactorily, then the BT tag can come off and no permanent damage would be done.
     
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  33. Sabtos

    Sabtos Poo-Bah (5,988) Dec 15, 2015 Ohio
    Society Trader

    Progress/status? Should we get a mod in here now?
     
    FBarber likes this.
  34. FBarber

    FBarber Poo-Bah (2,692) Mar 5, 2016 Illinois
    Society Trader

    @John_M had posted a couple times earlier, but yea, probably as good a time as any to get a Mod working on this ... According to his profile, @dabrees hasn't been on in over a month ... Not looking great.
     
    Sabtos likes this.
  35. jrnyc

    jrnyc Meyvn (1,085) Mar 21, 2010 New York
    Trader

    Hate to say it, but not looking good. Based on his bad prior trade, this one and the fact he hasn't been on in 4 weeks things not looking good. OP, did you get his cell #, try texting him?
     
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  36. John_M

    John_M Moderator (6,299) Oct 25, 2003 Oregon
    Society Trader

    I'll ask @dmbforever to hit him with the Bad Trader tag, but I agree, this isn't looking good. It's been nearly a month since he was last on BA and he hasn't communicated with the OP since 3/13.

    Might be worthwhile to see if any of the local BA members from Oklahoma know anything about @dabrees. Hopefully he's OK. He was actually pretty responsive to the community during the previous BT thread, so I'm a bit surprised (and concerned) that he's now completely cut off all communication with the OP and BA community
     
    FBarber likes this.
  37. Slack

    Slack Champion (872) Feb 14, 2012 Virginia
    Trader

    I will try and reach out via text and update this thread with any information.
     
    FFFjunkie likes this.