Potential Bad Trader

Discussion in 'Bad Traders' started by David55555, Aug 9, 2019.

  1. dmbforever

    dmbforever Crusader (766) May 8, 2013 Wisconsin
    Moderator Society Trader

    Yes, we definitely can leave this open. @John_M totally agree with your assessment of the situation.

    Hopefully the new trend in trading (not) is get your box on time, but don't communicate tracking or ignore your trade partner and leave them in the dark along the way

    I personally would leave positive, but definitely make note of communication concerns in feedback
    FBarber, Shanex, flat_lander and 2 others like this.
  2. David55555

    David55555 Initiate (107) Jan 20, 2017 Texas

    More so , I was asking about feedback. I see both sides of the rating system.
    I can see where the thinking to give neutral feedback would be accepted. Since a lot of people don't look at the actual comments/dates for that trader's trades. They just base it on 100% feedback and go off that.

    But I can also see where leaving positive feedback would be appropriate since the trade was completed. Just making sure to leave a comment noting communication issues. To be honest, i'm leaning this way because I can see where life gets in the way of beer/trading. After all, trade was completed and extras were sent as well. So trader did keep up their end of the transaction.
  3. Beer_Economicus

    Beer_Economicus Devotee (479) Apr 8, 2017 Indiana


    I will echo some of the sentiments already stated here for additional support, but also add a twist:

    1. Don’t post the name. As stated above, the trade was completed. Beers arrived safely. In the event someone does what we always suggest (running a search of someone’s handle before embarking on a trade), their name will come up. Bad communication not withstanding, not a “bad trader,” but certainly one many would likely add to their personal DNT list.
    2. 1 is not important for people to know their name when we can just view your feedback once it has been posted. Again, outing the name is not required.
    3. Positive or neutral are both warranted, do what you are comfortable with.

    4. This is where I will break from others. If I was you, I would wait to leave feedback until after you hear back. Specifically, I would try to get an explanation (“gently harassing” her by PM, just asking what happened, since it seemed so strange from your past experiences). Depending on how long that takes, or if it ever happens, I would allow this to dictate whether I feel comfortable leaving positive feedback (with a comment on communication), or going straight for Neutral.

    Glad everything turned out (mostly) positive.
    Rustytacos, FBarber and Shanex like this.
  4. dmbforever

    dmbforever Crusader (766) May 8, 2013 Wisconsin
    Moderator Society Trader

    Just gonna put my moderator hat on and say one last thing....feedback should be based on what transpired from when the trade *started* to when it was *completed*. By that I mean....if the trader in question never responds moving forward, that shouldn't sway a decision on feedback as the trade is over with and it should be based on what transpired between the lines. It would be nice to get closure, but the damage is done and that cant be changed no matter what excuses or reasons the trader in question gives.
  5. flat_lander

    flat_lander Zealot (540) May 11, 2016 Illinois
    Society Trader

    This is where I'm at too.
    David55555 likes this.
  6. Beer_Economicus

    Beer_Economicus Devotee (479) Apr 8, 2017 Indiana

    This leaves me a bit confused.

    If I was OP, and this happened to me, and the trader in question responded to my message and simply said, “Hey dude. I am so sorry. Life has been very busy. XYZ. Totally sorry.” I would have zero issues.

    If they never respond (still), I have issues.

    The lack of communication happened DURING the trade, while it was open - before it was completed. The fact that you receive clarification once the trade has been completed - or the fact that you never do - does not seem like something that should be ignored. If they had responded before the box arrived, it sounds like you are saying that would be relevant, but the fact that a box has now been delivered makes any response irrelevant? I don’t Understand that.

    Said differently, based on your post it sounds like one would be encouraged to leave neutral feed back for a lack of communication while the trade was open, even if the trader in question responded RIGHT NOW with a very good explanation.

    That seems just as backwards.
  7. pwdbyhops

    pwdbyhops Aspirant (202) Apr 1, 2015 Ohio

    I just check for 100% good reputation. I barely ever read the comments. Who has time to read every feedback if a person has over 15-20 feedbacks? If someone like this trader gets positive feedback, I would never see or know that someone has an issue with bad communication. This person would definitely be on my DNT list.
    Rustytacos likes this.
  8. John_M

    John_M Poo-Bah (6,372) Oct 25, 2003 Oregon
    Moderator Society Trader

    It probably depends on how much or how often you trade. If it's a lot, then I see your point and tend to agree with you. I don't trade all that much, and so if I was going to initiate a trade with a new to me trader, then I would absolutely read over all the feedback (most of which is pretty brief). If there was some questionable feedback, then I would probably need to receive an explanation and some reassurance from the other trader. Trading is time consuming and expensive, and so I prefer to take as few chances as possible.
    FBarber, Victory_Sabre1973 and Shanex like this.
  9. dwmetsfan13

    dwmetsfan13 Initiate (174) Jul 22, 2013 Massachusetts

    This may deserve a separate thread, but I'm curious of what people would consider to be a good/neutral/bad trade. I think there's also actually a 4th category, which is ban-worthy trade (theft would be ban-worthy, whereas there's something else that warrants a bad rating but I'm not quite sure what that is).

    In this particular case, I think neutral is appropriate. I'm 99% sure that OP would not trade with this person again so it feels disingenuous to call it a good trade.
    David55555 and Beer_Economicus like this.
  10. Beer_Economicus

    Beer_Economicus Devotee (479) Apr 8, 2017 Indiana

    I’ll start this thread in the general trade talk, and see what people have to say. I am almost 100% sure people won’t agree, but I am curious to see everyone’s opinion.
    odcardinal and FBarber like this.
  11. William_Navidson

    William_Navidson Initiate (151) May 1, 2015 Pennsylvania

    There's no point in a feedback system at all if this trader still has a "100%" feedback rating, if all here is completely accurate and there aren't more extenuating circumstances to her story (and we've been given no reason to believe that there are).
    odcardinal and FBarber like this.
  12. dmbforever

    dmbforever Crusader (766) May 8, 2013 Wisconsin
    Moderator Society Trader

    Did the OP receive his beers? Yes
    Did the beers arrive on time? Yes
    Did the OP admit to acting prematurely on making the thread? Yes
    Did his trader communicate a tracking number? No
    Did the OP ask for a tracking number? No
    Did the trader in question send extras? Yes

    The trader did everything, except (ultimately) communicate a tracking number and correspond to a message or two inquiring about shipping/ tracking. There is only one side to the story here and I have not seen the conversation of the trade between the two traders, so that should be noted here. As I mentioned before, in my book, positive feedback with communication issues involving tracking.

    I'm NOT gonna wait to leave feedback based on a response at this point. Trade is over with. Leave feedback and move on. The "fact" remains that their communication was lacking, BUT, everything else was positive. Again, only one side of the story here. Beers were delivered on time. At this point, is it really worth chasing an answer that may or may not be believable?

    The trader could say ANYTHING at this point in time and it won't be as believable based on time frame. Obviously whatever transpired with lack of communication was not life or death threatening as they still delivered beers on time.

    It sounds like you would ONLY leave positive feedback if the trader gave you a reason after the trade was completed with communication issues involving tracking...even though all arrived safe n sound, on time, as agreed ...but neutral if you never got disclosure on why you didn't receive a tracking #. Guess we are going to disagree on this one. Again...there is only one side of the story here.

    @David55555 messaged you to see trade convo
  13. Beer_Economicus

    Beer_Economicus Devotee (479) Apr 8, 2017 Indiana

    I feel like I don't understand your perspective. If I understand you correctly:

    NO communication by the trader in question means you leave positive feedback (not neutral) because beer arrived (late, I believe, by 3 days? I'd have to double check), nothing was broke, and extras were included?

    The lack of communication caused OP to try to get his box returned to him, which would have cost him additional $. All of that was caused by a lack of communication.

    The fact that beer arrived safe and sound is not the issue. It's the "whole package." To receive positive, everything should be positive.

    In regards to your question: Yes, I generally think that most everyone I have traded with on here is a good, honest person. If they do not appear that way, I won't trade with them. So, if they say, "Dude, I'm sorry. My dog died. I just was having a terrible time dealing with it. I don't really have anything better to say, I'm sorry for that lack of communication," then I would cut them a break. I might still leave feedback that said something like, "Everything arrived safe and sound. Good extras. Initially a communication error existed, but that was corrected. Good trader." To me, that would feel accurate.

    If they just blow me off and never respond? I don't understand why that deserves 100% feedback.
  14. dmbforever

    dmbforever Crusader (766) May 8, 2013 Wisconsin
    Moderator Society Trader

    There OBVIOUSLY had to be some communication as the trade took place and NOT no communication. The question here is a shipping/tracking #. I'm waiting to see convo and time stamps to see what exactly transpired to warrant "bad" communication. Again...one sided story here.
    jrnyc likes this.
  15. Beer_Economicus

    Beer_Economicus Devotee (479) Apr 8, 2017 Indiana

  16. dmbforever

    dmbforever Crusader (766) May 8, 2013 Wisconsin
    Moderator Society Trader

    Apparently @David55555 is ignoring me and not communicating because he is on the boards perusing other threads...considering I messaged him almost an hour ago... :wink:
    Dragginballs76, Shanex, jrnyc and 3 others like this.
  17. David55555

    David55555 Initiate (107) Jan 20, 2017 Texas

    Literally just saw the message lmao... but in my defense, I was outside cooking some fajitas. So that's got to count for something haha. Not but really, I was outside and my internet was slow. True story about the fajitas though.
  18. dmbforever

    dmbforever Crusader (766) May 8, 2013 Wisconsin
    Moderator Society Trader

    All good...just having fun..lol
  19. flat_lander

    flat_lander Zealot (540) May 11, 2016 Illinois
    Society Trader

    Hey, isn't fun against the rules?
  20. dmbforever

    dmbforever Crusader (766) May 8, 2013 Wisconsin
    Moderator Society Trader

    Alright...after reading the entire convo between the traders...there was communication upfront...but non-exsistent from OP's trade partner after the agreed upon ship date. This after numerous times reaching out kindly and professionally by @David55555 wondering what's up.

    Feedback, knowing what transpired, would be *nuetral* in my book with communication issues.

    The trader in question has great feedback and 20 trades under their belt with good to great communication feedback in most. Seems odd on their part, but they went completely MIA on communication and they have no open trades.

    Thanks David for letting me see what transpired.
  21. rozzom

    rozzom Champion (837) Jan 22, 2011 New York

    This is why there needs to be more degrees/granularity in the feedback system. IMO "BT" deserves neither good nor neutral, but something in between
    Shanex and jrnyc like this.
  22. DJ_Shazam

    DJ_Shazam Initiate (102) Jan 16, 2018 Ontario (Canada)

    This absolutely warrants Neutral feedback; it exists for a reason.

    You got all the agreed upon bottles on time, so Bad feedback is obviously out of the question. But it takes literally two minutes to send someone the message “Shipped your box out. Tracking is ___”. Doesn’t matter how busy your life is, you can do that while you’re taking a shit on the toilet. The fact that this individual couldn’t be bothered to spend those two minutes on an integral part of trading (proper communication) seems completely disrespectful in my opinion.

    If the trader has done something that makes you not want to trade with them in the future, then it wasn’t a good trade. Neutral feedback, man.
  23. readyski

    readyski Aspirant (247) Jun 4, 2005 California

    Kinda surprised the "other party" hasn't chimed in to set the record straight.
    flat_lander likes this.
  24. David55555

    David55555 Initiate (107) Jan 20, 2017 Texas

    Well the other party was never tagged in this thread. She also hasn't read my messages, so she might be completely unaware of this thread. Last time she read my message(s) was 8/07.
  25. Sabtos

    Sabtos Poo-Bah (6,786) Dec 15, 2015 Ohio
    Society Trader

    That...is weird af.

    Like...they just expected your shit to arrive, didn't give af if theirs arrived, and yeah whatevs...
    Junior, Shanex, nomadicbeer and 4 others like this.
  26. Shanex

    Shanex Meyvn (1,339) Dec 10, 2015 France
    Moderator Society Trader

    It’s very odd but it’s true of many of these threads here. At this point we can only speculate on whatever happened to her.. still waiting and hoping that the OP hear from her someday. I read many threads here too and rarely chimed in but if in her mind she was thinking « we trade some beers and then you just leave me alone »... IDK. Back in my days we told each others « Thank you ».
  27. Dactrius

    Dactrius Meyvn (1,477) Apr 23, 2012 Wisconsin
    Society Trader

    One thing that is important to me, is that in not communicating she never said that she received the beers. The trade is not complete in my opinion until both parties have indicated that things arrived safely and correctly. I personally don't drink anything I receive until I'm sure everything made it safe and sound. Obviously if you have multiples of what you sent available you can be easier going about that but in general, better safe than sorry.

    This certainly seems like a long enough time that the OP can go ahead and drink the beers, but how long do you wait if someone goes quiet? If she came back a few days after she received them and apologized for the slow response but said one of the bottles leaked, are you not on the hook anymore to replace it or send her beers back? How long do you have to wait?
  28. John_M

    John_M Poo-Bah (6,372) Oct 25, 2003 Oregon
    Moderator Society Trader

    IMHO, this is all on her. The OP indicated the beer had been delivered to her, which I assume he was able to verify by the tracking number. Obviously, it would have been helpful if she had actually communicated with the OP and told him everything arrived safe and sound, but for whatever reason she didn't do that.

    At this point I would assume she would have said something if there was any sort of problem, or she never would have sent the OP the promised beer (as it appears she didn't ship until well after his package had already arrived). The fact she did finally ship his box, with no further commentary on her part, would lead me to infer that everything must have arrived safely on her end.

    At this point, I'm not sure what else the OP can do in this case. If she did later tell the OP there was some problem with the shipment he sent her, I would assume his first question would be "if that's the case, why did you wait till now to tell me about it, and how come you didn't respond to any of my earlier communication attempts, which would have been the perfect time to tell me about this problem?"
    #68 John_M, Aug 19, 2019 at 8:30 PM
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2019 at 2:45 PM
    Shanex, brutalfarce and FBarber like this.
  29. Dactrius

    Dactrius Meyvn (1,477) Apr 23, 2012 Wisconsin
    Society Trader

    To be clear, I agree that he's fine in this case to drink the beer. I should've said that "a trade is not complete" and not worded it so it seemed like I was applying it to this particular trade. It's been plenty long in my opinion, and I missed that she received before sending out.

    I've just had too many frustrations over the years where somebody takes forever for someone to tell me that my shipment arrived safe and sound. It's not like I'm going thirsty being unable to drink it but sometimes there is an occasion right away I'd like to pop a bottle.
    David55555, brutalfarce and Joplamp like this.
  30. FBarber

    FBarber Poo-Bah (2,825) Mar 5, 2016 Illinois
    Society Trader

    Ok, Ive got a question here. maybe @dmbforever, @Shanex, or @John_M can weigh in with a bit more authority.

    So I just checked @David55555 's profile and he still has 3 open trades - one of which I'm assuming is the trade that is the subject of this thread. Assuming it is, if John leaves feedback for the other party, but the other party never leaves feedback, the feedback is deleted after 180 days, right?

    Now, if Im understanding it correctly, since the new feedback score calculation went into effect, the unnamed other party would get dinged in her reputation score for failing to leave feedback, correct?

    But if she leaves feedback and John left her neutral feedback, would that impact her feedback score at all?
  31. David55555

    David55555 Initiate (107) Jan 20, 2017 Texas

    Still as of this moment haven't left any feedback on my end. I messaged the other party to see if they wanted to give an explanation of what happened. Have not heard a response yet. So, assuming this is it, I should be leaving appropriate feedback soon.
    Junior, tillmac62, Shanex and 5 others like this.