Pump for Recirculation (Vorlauf)

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by minderbender, Sep 24, 2018.

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  1. minderbender

    minderbender Initiate (0) Jan 18, 2009 New York

    I am thinking about buying a pump to recirculate my wort at the end of the mash. (I don't feel the need to recirculate during the mash at this point, but I may in the future.) Although I manually recirculate when I brew, I don't get the wort very clear, and I am convinced by @TheBeerery's blog post here that it's a good idea to get the wort as clear as possible coming out of the mash. While manual recirculation is enough to get rid of grain husks and a certain amount of cloudiness (proteins and lipids), I'm no longer satisfied with the clarity of the wort that it produces. That is my motivation to get a pump. I have a few questions and I would appreciate any other thoughts or advice people might have.

    I'll be using the pump to recirculate wort through a 10-gallon cylindrical cooler mash tun. My plan is to arrange the pump in a position where I can prime it by opening the tap at the bottom of my mash tun and running the wort up through the pump head and then out into another silicone hose leading back into the top of the mash. I'll orient the pump head so that the inflow is at the bottom and the outflow is at the top, so that any bubbles should float up out of the pump. I'll have some kind of restriction on the outflow side to control the flow rate (maybe built into the pump, see below). I'll recirculate for a few minutes(?) (however long it takes to get clear wort), keeping the flow fairly slow so that I don't compact the grain bed. When the wort is running clear I'll turn off the pump, redirect the outflow hose into my kettle, and turn the pump back on.

    So here are my questions:

    1. I am leaning toward a Blichmann RipTide pump. It is only a little more expensive than a standard stainless-head March pump, and it has a built-in needle valve to control flow. People also say it is quiet, which is somewhat important to me as I live in an apartment building and don't want to annoy my neighbors. (The walls aren't that thin, though, and I won't be using the pump very often, so I could tolerate a moderate amount of noise.) I also like that it has an on/off switch. Early reviews noted a tendency for the impeller to stick, but the problem seems to have been addressed, and Blichmann is known for good customer service.

    Any thoughts? Any experience, positive or negative, with the RipTide pump? In past threads, people have expressed positive and negative views of the needle valve, but I think it might be suitable for my needs since I want a slow flow rate. But please let me know if you have had bad experiences with it.

    2. Would it be best to use a bazooka screen, a false bottom, a mash-in-a-bag system, or some combination of these? Or is it irrelevant? I was leaning toward a false bottom, but in John Palmer's How to Brew he suggests that a false bottom is not ideal for this purpose because its large surface area is slow to form a filtering layer of grain. Any thoughts are welcome. If it doesn't matter, I'll probably go with a bazooka screen underneath a false bottom.

    3. How would you suggest affixing the silicone hose at the top of the mash tun (where it returns the wort)? I want to avoid splashing, so I plan to keep it below the surface of the wort, but I'm not sure how to accomplish that. Is channeling a concern? If not, it might be as easy as attaching some kind of heavy stainless steel to the end of the hose and putting it in the mash tun wherever.

    Thanks to anyone who read this far and thanks for any thoughts or advice.
     
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  2. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    Have you listened to the July 28 master brewers podcast on better fermentation with cloudy wort. Not that I’m advocating one approach or the other. Just appreciating the complexity - adjusting the system often has positive and negative benefits.

    I do have a return setup for recirculating my ebiab system. Concerned about O2, I stopped using it. I did by a hose barb attachment that will let me do what you said in #3 but haven’t tried it out yet.
     
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  3. invertalon

    invertalon Pooh-Bah (2,249) Jan 27, 2009 Ohio
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    I use the Riptide and really like it. Very easy to disassemble and clean/sanitize. I have been very happy with it's performance. Very quiet, as well. The built-in valve works perfectly for me. Again, no issues what-so-ever.

    I only use a bazooka tube in my kettle when using whole leaf hops... When I use the pump for whirlpool at the end of the boil. Otherwise, with pellet, I run commando and the pump handles all those hops just fine. Even with big IPA/DIPA's.

    When using the pump with the mash tun, I just use a false bottom. No issue. I recirculate the last 15min or so. You don't need both a false bottom and bazooka, one or the other is fine.

    No comment on #3, I made (3) hoses... Two with female disconnects on both ends and one that has a male on one end with the other size just the tube ending. Male QD's on my mash tun and kettle. So when I recirculate, I connect my single ended male into the female and place the non-QD'd end into the kettle or mash tun, or wherever I want to send the fluid. Works for me.
     
    #3 invertalon, Sep 24, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2018
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  4. minderbender

    minderbender Initiate (0) Jan 18, 2009 New York

    Thanks both of you, very helpful. I have not listened to the Master Brewers Podcast, but I will do so before making any purchases.
     
  5. TheBeerery

    TheBeerery Initiate (0) May 2, 2016 Minnesota

  6. minderbender

    minderbender Initiate (0) Jan 18, 2009 New York

    To summarize, it appears that the solids removed during recirculation contain fatty acids and zinc that are useful to yeast during fermentation. Including those solids in the fermenting wort results in less ester formation, less need for oxygenation, and a faster fermentation. (I am not sure that these effects would always be observed. The paper linked to in the thread @TheBeerery pointed me to does not appear to be publicly available. The interview with Magdalena Oehlschlaeger that @pweis909 pointed me to (link) seems to indicate that the "cloudy" wort was fermented at an unusually low temperature, which in my opinion could account for the lower ester formation that was observed. However, I can't really assess that conclusion without access to the paper.)

    On the other side of the ledger, while zinc is desirable in the wort, fatty acids have mixed effects on the final product. In particular they have been blamed for staling the beer faster and for negative effects on head formation/retention. (You can read about that in the post I linked to earlier.)

    It should be borne in mind that recirculation does not remove all of the solids from the wort. It merely reduces them.

    Balancing these factors, I'm inclined to stick with my original plan of using a pump to recirculate the wort in an effort to remove a large portion of the solids present in the mash. I intend to use yeast nutrient during the boil to provide the zinc that the yeast require, and I intend to oxygenate the wort (as is my usual practice). I'll report back once I've had a chance to see the results.

    In the meantime any other thoughts or advice is welcome.
     
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  7. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    I had no idea that there was already a thread on the same debate going on only 10 days earlier on the homebrewers association forum, which I almost never look at (only because I love you all here at this forum). No one would ever accuse me of being ahead of the curve, but who knew I'd ever be this close to it!

    In that HA forum thread, narcout summed up my thoughts best, "balancing between competing goals." The idea of competing goals has fascinated me professionally; same goes for my hobby.

    Aside: Although fairly happy with the results of my happy-go-lucky approach to homebrewing, I applaud the lengths @TheBeerery has gone to make better beer and appreciate his willingness to share it.
     
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  8. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Which is indeed a very important thing, right?

    To proselytize that only one aspect is worthy of optimizing vs. others is non-optimum, right?

    Cheers!
     
  9. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    It's homebrewing. It happens in your home. No one can tell you how to do it. (Unless, maybe, you are married to them). There's lots of advice on the internet. Take what works best for you. Share it with the world because it will surely work for someone else. Don't assume it will work for everyone. Leave behind what doesn't work for you. But don't dismiss it with extreme prejudice, because it will surely work for someone else.

    (video will play after ad)
     
    #9 pweis909, Sep 25, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2018
  10. Brewday

    Brewday Zealot (721) Dec 25, 2015 New York

    Here's my setup. I can list the parts if this is what your looking for. There's a coldbreak false bottom inside.

    [​IMG]
     
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  11. minderbender

    minderbender Initiate (0) Jan 18, 2009 New York

    Not sure if the problem is on my end, but I can't see the picture.
     
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  12. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    I picked up a chugger pump for this very reason. I got sick of cleaning the thing, and the smallest amount of debris inevitably locked the vanes up. It became such a pain in the ass that I gave up on using it. To be honest, my manual vorlauf nets a wort that is as clear as any wort I ran off with the pump.
     
  13. minderbender

    minderbender Initiate (0) Jan 18, 2009 New York

    I agree that narcout's point on the AHA forum is compelling. I don't feel that my beer has a big shelf stability problem, but then again it's one of those things you might not notice until you taste the alternative. My beer definitely has foam issues, which makes me think a lot of lipids are making their way into the kettle. (In fairness, on the few occasions I've brewed hoppy beers, the foam has been better, so I suspect a lot of it is the type of beer I'm brewing. But it's not just sours, if I brew a porter that isn't very hoppy, the head retention will be poor.) So for my situation, trying a pump makes sense. But who knows, maybe my beer will get too estery and my yeast will suffer for lack of zinc, and I'll go right back to manually recirculating.

    @SFACRKnight's experience is more troubling though. Have other people experienced those kinds of problems? I'm hopeful that because I'm only recirculating mash wort through it, it will be unlikely to get clogged.
     
  14. minderbender

    minderbender Initiate (0) Jan 18, 2009 New York

    Incidentally, this strikes me as an area where the Brülosophy approach could be highly misleading. (In point of fact Brülosophy has run two experiments, link one, link two, neither of which was well-designed to address the question.) What I mean is that the actual trade-off that brewers face is between (A) not recirculating, instead relying on the unsaturated fatty acids from the mash to boost yeast health in lieu of or in addition to nutrient augmentation and oxygenation, or (B) recirculating while relying on the addition of yeast nutrient and oxygen to facilitate a healthy fermentation. If you isolate only the recirculation variable, you must ensure that both worts have adequate zinc and oxygen. In Brülosophy's first experiment, no yeast nutrient was used, in which case the advantages of recirculation could be underestimated.

    My personal view is that Brülosophy experiments should be "pre-registered" (that is, published ahead of time on the website), with a chance for interested homebrewers to comment on experiment design, and the results should be published whatever they might be. (In the real world pre-registration is used to address publication bias, the tendency to share only positive results, leading to a skewed perception of reality.) [Edited to add: pre-registration, when properly done, also addresses "p-hacking," the tendency to fish for a "statistically significant" effect even though it wasn't the original hypothesis being tested.]

    But then again, this is easy for me to say, I don't run the website. For what it's worth, if I decide to run an experiment comparing pump recirculation to manual recirculation, I will post about it on this forum with ample opportunity for people to comment.
     
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  15. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    I agree. This is a good idea, but I doubt it would ever happen. Hell, I'd love to see even something as basic as a clearly worded disclaimer, which could probably be done in less than 50 words, in each study, about what exactly has been proven (i.e. nothing) when the tasters fail to detect a difference to the stated level of confidence.

    My own disclaimer: I haven't read the experiments discussed in this thread. I'm talking in general.
     
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  16. epk

    epk Pundit (849) Jun 10, 2008 New Jersey

    I'm surprised by this. I've been using the same one for years with little problems. I use it for both mash recirc with my RIMS tube (so it's necessary in that regard, with a difference in that it is running for the entire mash) and whirpool with my kettle. I see husks pass through with no issue. The last time I plugged it up was with some dried citrus peel in the kettle if I remember correctly.

    To OP, I use a false bottom and I acutally do just lay the silicon tubing on the mash bed. Channeling isn't terrible, and that's over the course of an hour, so you would probably have even less channeling.
     
    #16 epk, Sep 25, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2018
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  17. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    I've had grain and hops plug it up. I have also had priming issues with it. I used it for vorlauf sparging and whirlpool initially. Then vorlauf and sparging, then backed off to just sparging.
     
  18. epk

    epk Pundit (849) Jun 10, 2008 New Jersey

    Ouch. I really can't say I have ever had grain or pellet hops clog it up. I've seen the priming issues before, but typically if I have it more or less in front of the mash tun and at a lower elevation, seem to take off fine (then I slide it over in front of the kettle to whirpool).

    One of the worst mashes I've had was when I added pumpkin directly to it. But I really think that was more that the pumpkin matter flowed through the pump to the top of the mash and formed some sort of suction killing pumpkin layer of doom. I've had some thick mashes with similar issues that I just needed to add more water to.

    EDIT: Thought occured, could the hops/grain actually be plugging up some valve or thinner section of tubing which in turn caues the pump to seize? Or are they litterally stuck in the pump itself?
     
    #18 epk, Sep 25, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2018
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  19. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    I enjoy the brulosophy podcast (except for the pretentious and misplaced umlaut) but would also like to see them alter their approach.

    1) results are idiosyncratic. They need to replicate experiments more frequently to carry more weight. In this way, I preferred the experimental brewing approach. The real world answers are most likely going to be “sometimes it matters.”

    2) I’m not convinced that the double blind approach is helpful. Obviously the tasting should be blind, but I think if the tasters knew what characteristic to focus on they might taste the difference. The ability to perceive things is enhanced by knowing what to look for. Figuring out which haystack has a needle in it is more difficult if you didn’t know you were looking for a needle. Of course you can plant an idea with a suggestion “do you taste the Munich malt?” But that’s not the same as “one of these beers has 5% Munich malt and the other doesn’t. Can you pick the odd beer out.” You key the drinker in and he is a better position to spot the real difference. I think this helps overcome the “getting to know a beer” phase that happens in a less artificial tasting environment. There probably was a time that I couldn’t detect a difference among macrolagers but gradually I learned the difference. That process might have been accelerated if someone said one had a little green apple. Huh what? Oh now I taste it!
     
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  20. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    They aren't blocking flow, they literally stopped the pump in its tracks.
     
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