Recipe Critique -- Imperial Stout

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by frozyn, Sep 26, 2018.

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  1. frozyn

    frozyn Maven (1,435) May 16, 2015 New York
    Trader

    2.5 gallon batch. I will likely brew with 1084 using 200 ml of slurry from a porter (or maybe a baby coffee stout I prime with sugary cold brew...!) of some sort bottled the day of. Open to suggestions on yeast, but I like 1084's performance in the 3 beers I've brewed with it so far.
    • 62% Golden Promise (6.5 pounds)
    • 5% Chocolate 350 (.5 pound)
    • 5% Briess Caramel Rye 60L (.5 pound)
    • 5% Roasted Barley (.5 pound)
    • 5% Victory (.5 pound)
    • 5% Crystal 120 (.5 pound)
    • 5% Special B (.5 pound)
    • 10% D-180 Syrup (1 pound)
    • 1 oz Magnum at 60
    • 1 oz each Cascade/Centennial at 5
    90 minute mash at 152, 75 minute boil leads to:
    • OG: 1.110
    • FG: 1.024
    • ABV:11.3%
    • IBUs: 83 IBUs
    I've brewed one imperial stout before and it turned out pretty well, including getting my usual 74% efficiency, so I'm fairly confident I will hit the numbers above. The first one was 75% 2-row, 8% chocolate 350, 5% roasted barley, 5% special B, 4% flaked oats and 3% golden naked oats, and it had a strong roast up front and smoothed out to some caramel sweetness/raisin/plum in the past year, so I would say I'm looking for more depth from the malts. Trying to trend closer to Bell's Expedition stout, and mine lacked the same depth/intensity of flavor. And a little sweetness. I'm also thinking:
    • the Crystal 120/Special B are redundant and might be better off if I drop one and add more Chocolate 350 or Victory for some more malt depth (would likely drop the Special B)
    • the D-180 is for ABV boost to deal with BIAB mash capacity limits/also for fun, but maybe excessive. If I want to get more ABV, probably better to drop a pound of dextrose/DME at 10 minutes left in the boil, but am curious as to everyone's input on using the syrup
    Ferment at 62-64, raise to 70 after a week or so, depending on the SG reading at the time. What does everyone think?
     
  2. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Savant (1,149) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    Too much caramel, Victory, crystal, and Special B. Cut those all down to approximately 1/3 as much, then adjust for color if necessary, and then you're good.
     
  3. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    Yeah, I agree with @dmtaylor on the caramel/crystal/special B. For a 2.5 gallon batch, 1.5 lbs seems too much. The victory intrigues me. I'm wondering if it will be noticed among the roasted stuff. I suspect it could be dropped without hurting the recipe, maybe even helping it. Such a fine line between muddied and complex. Just because you are adding Dark Syrup to help overcome mash efficiency, I'm going to say ditch the victory. Let the syrup be your complexity here.
     
  4. GormBrewhouse

    GormBrewhouse Pooh-Bah (2,111) Jun 24, 2015 Vermont
    Pooh-Bah

    For me, I d say forget the special b and victory, replace with same amount of golden promise or for more malt depth sub with Munich L10 or dark Munich.
    Have fun
     
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  5. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania

    I like this grainbill very much. Only thing that I'd change is I'd drop the Victory and add it back either as base malt or oats. The three crystal-type malts are OK. I might think about dropping the 60L, but it's not a deal-breaker.

    As far as the D-180 goes, IMO, it's going to get lost in this beer. Just use table sugar, as you mentioned.

    I dislike C-hops very much in my stouts. It's your beer, so it's your choice, but I rather not use any finishing hops than use C-hops. The other option would be to use a more earthy hop, like Fuggles or Goldings.

    FWIW, here's one clone recipe for Expedition:

    https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=10220.0
     
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  6. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania

    I think Munich is a fantastic idea in dark, malt forward, beers.
     
  7. frozyn

    frozyn Maven (1,435) May 16, 2015 New York
    Trader

    Many thanks to everyone for their input, a lot of good guidance and suggestions. Taking into account everyone's notes on too much caramel, possible shadowing of Victory/muddled notes, and the suggestion for Munich, I've switched things up a little on the malt bill:
    • 66.7% Golden Promise (7 pounds)
    • 9.5% Dark Munich 15L (1 pound)
    • 4.8% Chocolate 350 (.5 pound)
    • 4.8% Roasted Barley (.5 pound)
    • 2.4% Crystal 120 (.25 pound)
    • 2.4% Briess Caramel Rye 60L (.25 pound)
    • 9.5% D-180 Syrup (1 pound)
    That seems a little more reasonable in my mind - I was worried I was including too many different malts. Am still not decided on the D-180 -- I may let the brewing spirits move me when I'm at the LHBS between it and dextrose/table sugar. Would you all keep the Caramel Rye at this point or just drop it?
     
  8. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania

    I always like to have more than one crystal-type malt in my imperial stouts. I find that the different levels of kilning make for a more complex flavor profile.

    FWIW, the grainbill looks more focused now.
     
  9. MrOH

    MrOH Grand Pooh-Bah (3,995) Jul 5, 2010 Virginia
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah

    I tend to use either D-90 or D-180 in all my big dark beers. Not as fermentable as dextrose or sucrose, but it adds a nice background dried fruit character.
     
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  10. GormBrewhouse

    GormBrewhouse Pooh-Bah (2,111) Jun 24, 2015 Vermont
    Pooh-Bah

    i never use syrup , on my own, but have with others. When wanting to bring on the complexity i employ chocolate, black patent , special roast, several munichs, regular crystals, special B,,,, grains.

    Got nothing against syrups. just like a huge cooler full of grain steaming and a smellin super, yaaaaaaaahhhhhh
     
  11. frozyn

    frozyn Maven (1,435) May 16, 2015 New York
    Trader

    One more question -- when reusing fresh yeast slurry, any need to oxygenate the wort before pitching? Going to bottle the coffee stout as the stout is mashing and then harvest whatever mL of slurry BrewCipher tells me to in a sanitized jar and put it in the fridge until the stout is ready for pitching.
     
  12. GormBrewhouse

    GormBrewhouse Pooh-Bah (2,111) Jun 24, 2015 Vermont
    Pooh-Bah

    I do this often to save money and just because I like pitching a lot of yeast on a big beer, so,
    I am making an IRS and have 1 pint of slurry from an irish stout. no idea how many cells are in it but it has worked many times over the years. If its slurry and not just beer id say go for it.

    I have never oxiginated a brew, just the splashing of the wort pouring into the fermenter pail.
    others may help with this.
     
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  13. Prep8611

    Prep8611 Savant (1,208) Aug 22, 2014 New Jersey

    I at least aerate the wort before I pitch the slurry.
     
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  14. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania

    Though aeration is important for cellular growth (again, see Pasteur Effect for why), doing more than GBH said above is not really necessary. On a 5 gallon homebrew scale, at least.
     
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  15. frozyn

    frozyn Maven (1,435) May 16, 2015 New York
    Trader

    Interesting. I've noticed stronger fermentations since I started oxygenating even my 2.5 gallon batches, so it's interesting to read you say it's not necessary. I know you're a big proponent of research -- do you have any related links about aeration/oxygenation?
     
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  16. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania

    I'm not saying don't aerate, I'm just saying that hitting your beer with pure O2 probably isn't necessary if you're vigorously pouring/splashing your wort into your fermenter before pitching.
     
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  17. frozyn

    frozyn Maven (1,435) May 16, 2015 New York
    Trader

    Oh yeah right on, I didn't think you meant not to aerate. Was just wondering if you had any research on the necessity/benefit of oxygenating above and beyond aerating. I'm sure it's quite limited as studies tend to focus on batches bigger than 2.5-5 gallons, but you always seem to have a study up your sleeve in discussions like this.
     
  18. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania

    Probably the most simple "study" is here:

    http://www.wyeastlab.com/oxygenation

    And, of course, some exBEERiments, for those that like those kinds of things:

    http://brulosophy.com/2015/07/13/wort-aeration-pt-2-shaken-vs-pure-oxygen-exbeeriment-results/
     
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  19. wasatchback

    wasatchback Pooh-Bah (1,574) Jan 12, 2014 Tajikistan
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    Great recent MBAA podcast on wort aeration.
     
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