Refunds for 2015 Regular BCBS and 2015 Prop

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by GatorLCA, Apr 13, 2016.

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  1. SteveSexton203

    SteveSexton203 Initiate (0) Feb 19, 2014 Connecticut

    Umm the guy that i quoted sdaid they NEVER used tart cherries. I just informed him they did lol.
    i dont think you read that part fully though but thanks
  2. berto714

    berto714 Initiate (0) Oct 16, 2014 New York

    No, I didn't say that. I was only talking about BCBS. Its commonly understood that BCBS only refers to the base beer, not variants, and this thread is about base BCBS. Also, I never said anything about the use of actual cherries at all, just tart cherry flavors - obviously I know Cherry Rye uses actual tart cherries.
    njk82 and SteveSexton203 like this.
  3. Highbrow

    Highbrow Devotee (460) Jan 7, 2011 California

    just finished one. the immediate nose on it was definitely souring. surprisingly, it tasted very good. given the aroma, which was very prominent at first, i was pretty shocked it didn't exhibit any off notes. also, the concentration of aroma seemed to be built up in the neck & around the cap area. either i got more use to it as it went along or the off scents dissipated pretty quickly. the bottle has lost the scent for the most part. the cap still smells sour. also, some described "metallic" taste. i didn't taste anything, but mixed in the soured aroma, there was a faint scent of iron?

  4. nick0417

    nick0417 Initiate (0) Jun 13, 2014 Illinois

    Question: Anyone had issues with Oct. 9 bottling? Checked the cellar yesterday and all my bottles, purchased in Illinois, are Oct. 9. I have one Nov. 4 bottle from a trade. Any insights would be much appreciated. Thanks, folks!
  5. LambicPentameter

    LambicPentameter Initiate (0) Aug 29, 2012 Nebraska

    Last night I cracked one as part of a mass tasting in a FB group I'm a part of. The idea was everyone crack a bottle, share your bottling date/time and any tasting notes/observations.

    I cracked one with a date of 06OCT15 2010 of the 14.3% variety. Purchased in Lawrence, Kansas on Black Friday.

    My bottle had all the main flavor profiles I expect from a bottle of BCBS. Bittersweet chocolate, vanilla, molasses, some licorice, bourbon/booze and of course that beautiful char/roasted malt flavor. No flavors that indicated to me that it had started to turn or would begin to turn anytime in the reasonably near future. The bottle has been stored in a cool, Michigan cellar for about 98% of the time it's been in my possession, and I didn't even chill it down to drink it last night. The only thing I thought was remotely odd was the fact that, when I poured mine, the carbonation initially seemed a little more effervescent than I remember. Not over-carbed--just the way it fizzed seemed different.

    I also wanted to share my observations from the tasting thread itself:

    Out of the 44 bottles that were opened/mentioned/etc across a wide range of dates, geography and ABVs, only two (5%) got mention as full-blown "this is sour" comments. Then there were another eight (18%) that had comments along the lines of "something's off" or "not as good as I remember" or "it's different somehow"--i.e., descriptions that were very much up for interpretation. There were a couple that mentioned green pepper flavor, which is certainly considered an off flavor, but not something that I would typically associate with infection, but I'm far from an expert. And of course, the other 34 (77%) were definitively categorized tasting great.

    Obviously this is far from a scientific sample. There was no methodology to the selection process and there was no control on the tasting itself. But it does provide a little bit more depth and context in the form of anecdotal examples.

    So what does it all mean?

    There is a problem at some level. While I think some skepticism is appropriate for some of the reports of infection, it's hard to dismiss people getting undeniably sour flavors.

    There is also a lot of noise being created by the psychosomatic effect. I think a lot of the wishy-washy evaluations of bottles are more likely a result of perception than an actual infection. Beers like BCBS--which is highly complex with a lot of different flavor profiles intermingling--are even more susceptible to this because flavor and perception is such a strange thing. I will occasionally feel like I'm drinking a slightly different beer from sip to sip in beers like BCBS. The other day, I had a taste experience with food that illustrates just how odd our perception of flavors can be--I grabbed lunch from the hot bar at a local grocery store. There were two things that looked really good, so I decided to grab a little of each: one was some kind of an Asian BBQ pork and rice dish, the other was a jalapeno mac & cheese. I started with the pork and finished it all before moving to the mac & cheese. And it was oddly sour in a pronounced way--the way dairy products can sometimes be, like a really sharp cheddar or sour cream, etc. Something about the smoky and sweet flavors of the pork dish kicked my perception of that sourness up several notches.

    I've rambled on for long enough, but I do want to re-emphasize that I'm not specifically calling out anyone who has gotten sour bottles. Just getting a little esoteric with the nature of taste perception and how I believe that is a major influencing factor in these situations where we here a report or few about infected bottles, and all of a sudden the dam bursts open and everything is infected.
  6. Urq

    Urq Initiate (85) Feb 18, 2014 North Carolina

    I've had three in the past week and a half....

    One Nov bottle: tasted excellent

    Oct 22 0920: Smell was bit sour at first, beer tasted mildly off while cold. However as it warmed the sour kept growing until the remainder of the bottle was undrinkable. Tasted exactly like the off flavored '15 BCBCS.

    Oct 22 0921: Smell was highly tart from the beginning. Immediate sips were pretty big on the metallic/sour flavors. Tried with a bunch of friends at work; some beer geeks some not. Everybody agreed it was unpleasant.
  7. tanis38

    tanis38 Initiate (29) Jul 26, 2013 Florida

    Sorry, but I did a side by side of two bottles that had the same bottle date and they tasted like two different beers. One was delicious. The other was undrinkable. We are not delusional or making things up for shits and giggles.
  8. BeerIsLife11

    BeerIsLife11 Initiate (0) Jul 21, 2015 Indiana

    Well... My case was bottled Nov 6th. Got one in the fridge to drink after DLD tomorrow. Will report back
  9. SMH_NWI

    SMH_NWI Zealot (501) Jan 8, 2015 Texas

    17 freaking pages
    4truth, raynmoon and MikeP64 like this.
  10. Angerhaus

    Angerhaus Crusader (736) Oct 1, 2015 Rhode Island

    Folks are just getting warmed up.
  11. cavedave

    cavedave Poo-Bah (3,105) Mar 12, 2009 New York
    Society Trader

    Not to worry, the way every infection like this has gone is first there are scattered reports, and many folks jumping in to say that it is probably imaginary, maybe a result of eating a food that contributed to the beer tasting "off", others calling the reporters noobs and doubting their abilities to detect off flavors from flavors in a complex beer with lots of flavors.

    Then more reports come in, and the reports become more severe, as the infection matures. Still lots of folks dismissing the reports, still folks calling out the reporters for not being able to accurately sense what they are tasting.

    Then still more reports come in, most of them now saying the beer was unmistakably infected, and most of them drain pours. Amazingly, there still are folks at this point who dismiss the accounts and try to invent scenarios where all these people could be mistaken.

    Then there are a torrent of reports, as even the bottles kept refrigerated start to turn awful. At this point sometimes the brewery will admit that there is a problem. Sometimes a brewery will never admit there is a problem. Some breweries, such as Short's, will not only dismiss the claims, but go so far as to blame all the reports on poor storage of the beer by every one of the people who reported problems.

    Finally there is a general consensus, as it is impossible even for the brewery shills to get away with their ridiculous claims that all is well. Sometimes this results in refunds being offered, but not always.
  12. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania

    Yep, and that questioning all comes about because there have never been erroneous reports of beer having off flavors. Nor have there ever been social media effects of false information infecting the thinking of others and spreading like wild fire. Similarly there are no recorded cases of beers being stored or handled improperly. It's all just some people being shills.
    #652 drtth, Apr 30, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2016
    Coldstorage likes this.
  13. lionssoccer13

    lionssoccer13 Aspirant (211) Jun 30, 2011 Florida

    I live in Florida, so obviously no basement. I don't have a refrigerator big enough to hold my ridiculous collection of bottles, nor a wife that would let my hoarding habit spill over into our kitchen icebox. Therefore most of my bottles sit in a dark closet in a back room that gets very little light to begin with. My house usually sits a a decent 72-74 degrees. I know these aren't "ideal" storage conditions buts it's what I have. The other night I put a 21Oct, 30Sept and a 2012 BCBS in the fridge to consume. Started with the 21Oct, clearly infected. I'm not a certified cecerone but the subsequent bottles did not taste like a bad version of the Bruery's Oude Tart, including the bottle of BCBS that I have, by some peoples account, mistreating for 4 years now.

    My point is, most of the people on this site are not morons and are in fact really into beer. We should be able to taste the glaring problems with a beer that a lot of us have been drinking for 5-6 years now. I can tell you from personal experience that the infection that I've had with my 21Oct bottles is really bad. Luckily, I got a number of 30Sept bottles that have been awesome, so it's not across the board yet. I know that there will be people trying to take advantage of GI if they ever do offer refunds, this happens in all sectors of life, not just beer. But hopefully GI realizes that something happened here and they need to make it right. God knows they have the resources to do so. I also hope that this infection is limited to certain bottles/barrels bc I would like to enjoy a 2015 BCBS in 2019 the way I enjoy that 2012 the other night.

    PS - Can we please get off the improper cellering talk, that's clearly not the cause here. Infected is infected.
  14. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania

    Useful information. I think you realize (as some may not) that the storage you report would not cause the problem, just accelerate the change of flavors over time. As for your hope that your 2015 will survive, if it was a batch problem, then I'd guess that your 30 Sep bottlings should continue to be fine. I'm not a pro, but from my brewery tours, that seems to me a long time gap for it all to be from the same set of barrels being mixed for bottling.
  15. pagriley

    pagriley Meyvn (1,032) Oct 27, 2014 Illinois

    Agreed. I actually do have a wine cellar, and all my bottles have been stored perfectly... and I mean perfectly... When you have a few $700 bottles of wine kicking around you don't fuck about on storage conditions. I have been drinking tasty beverages for 15 years, and I know damn well when something is off.

    I had an Oct 22 this week, and it wasn't right. It wasn't bad, but early signs were there - slightly metallic, a bit thin, acidic and hints of sour cherries on the nose. It got better as it sat (off smell dissipated somewhat), so it was very much more on the nose than the palate, but it wasn't right for sure. My solution was to dump an ounce of cold brew coffee into it - tasted fantastic after that, as the coffee masked the off flavors, but this is only a temporary solution - obviously this problem will take hold and get a lot worse over time in any bottle that is infected, and I bought 2 cases of the same bottling date (my entire stash actually) so needless to say I am not thrilled...

    As @drtth points out, the only difference between yours and my experience is that my bottle is going to take longer to show signs of infection because of the storage conditions - yours is exactly what mine would have been in 3 or 4 more months. Two more bottles went in the fridge this morning and are getting drunk tonight - if they are off, Goose Island is getting a call, and an email, and a tweet, and a facebook post... Based on their reaction to coffee and barleywine I expect that eventually once enough reports roll in and they start seeing evidence for themselves, they will do something to address.
    Victory_Sabre1973 and Gasc0igne like this.
  16. Angerhaus

    Angerhaus Crusader (736) Oct 1, 2015 Rhode Island

    The @cavedave is wise, listen to the @cavedave
    Victory_Sabre1973 and jrnyc like this.
  17. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Poo-Bah (2,083) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Society Trader

    I sent a letter off to GI and got the we are looking into it reply. FWIW my bottle was stored @ 55 degrees in my cellar from the day it was purchased until consumption. As for my palate, I am a homebrewer who actively participates in local comps, and while I am not bjcp certified, as a steward I have put my palate to the test with certified judges of varying ranks. I am confident in what I have stated in my previous post. The beer is turning. The flavors of cherries and lingering garbage are flavors I have only encountered in that one bottle out of cases of BCBS I have had over the past 5 years.
    Victory_Sabre1973 and jrnyc like this.
  18. siege06nd

    siege06nd Savant (999) Dec 29, 2009 Virginia

    Wow, this is pretty much word for word my experience last night with a 12OCT bottle. Initial smell was metallic and oxidized but the taste was surprisingly good. As I drank through the glass, the smell went away. Strange.
    Victory_Sabre1973 and Highbrow like this.
  19. siege06nd

    siege06nd Savant (999) Dec 29, 2009 Virginia

    I think the most vexing aspect of all this is that I'm still not sure we have gotten a definitive statement from GI about just what the hell is going on. I'd really like to know what caused this, primarily so I can be assured GI has it under control when the next release occurs. The "didn't meet our standards" doesn't meet my standards of a proper explanation. Otherwise, I think they've done a good job with the damage control.

    I'm terrified for my Regal and Rare right now.
    PsilohsaiBiN and rightcoast7 like this.
  20. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Poo-Bah (2,083) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Society Trader

    The most vexing thing is that when GI was bought out all I heard was how more BCBS and its variants were going to get distro and how the quality would be the same if not better. The last time I saw BCBCS was preacquisition, and now we have quality control issues out the ass.
  21. MikeP64

    MikeP64 Initiate (166) Jan 24, 2015 South Carolina

    Jesus people move's just beer,not our nations blood supply!! Just dump it and don't buy it again.
  22. siege06nd

    siege06nd Savant (999) Dec 29, 2009 Virginia

    I love the sanctimonious "it's just beer perspective" posted by someone on a forum solely dedicated to beer.
    tanis38, Mark_Eck, red94tt and 16 others like this.
  23. Highbrow

    Highbrow Devotee (460) Jan 7, 2011 California

    or you could set an example by moving on yourself. don't talk about it. be about it.
    BrettHead, Mark_Eck, red94tt and 13 others like this.
  24. rightcoast7

    rightcoast7 Disciple (388) Apr 2, 2011 Maine

    As someone sitting on $120 worth of potentially gross beer, I am quite interested in seeing this get resolved. If you don't care, cool, dump yours and move on. Also probably don't open this thread.
  25. bozodogbreath

    bozodogbreath Disciple (377) Oct 19, 2006 Indiana

    How has this fact been established? Really, not wanting to start (or continue) a fight! Has GI confirmed or have any beer judges or cicerones backed these claims? Again, not wanting argument, just curious. Thanks!
  26. SMH_NWI

    SMH_NWI Zealot (501) Jan 8, 2015 Texas

    You didn't make it to DLD either?
    #666 SMH_NWI, Apr 30, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2016
    Vitamin_Hop likes this.
  27. SammyJaxxxx

    SammyJaxxxx Initiate (0) Feb 23, 2012 New Jersey

    What would normal ph be?
    What is the significance of it rising or falling?
    How much of a variance is significant?

    (I know the answer to these questions. I am just asking for the people that don't know and are afraid to ask)
    croush and SFACRKnight like this.
  28. nc41

    nc41 Poo-Bah (2,771) Sep 25, 2008 North Carolina
    Society Trader

    I traded for more Bcbs, from what I've had I don't have a grave concern. I have some Sept bottlings the rest are Nov, and from what Ive had they were as expected, and I don't expect them to turn to shit in 6 months or even a year. I could be wrong, but I don't think this is an all encompassing infection problem. Seems pretty random so far.
  29. nograz

    nograz Disciple (383) Oct 30, 2013 Minnesota

    If you know the answers, why not just post them for the people you are trying to help?
  30. Immortale25

    Immortale25 Poo-Bah (3,439) May 13, 2011 North Carolina
    Society Trader

    This is the internet. Your fancy logic has no place here!
    mwa423 and nograz like this.
  31. Bartos

    Bartos Initiate (0) Mar 8, 2013 Florida

    What are you offering FT? I got 12 bottles of 21OCT15 sitting in my fridge and I can guarantee they are sour because the last 20 bottles of 21OCT15 that I opened were
  32. Shmuffalo

    Shmuffalo Initiate (0) Feb 26, 2012 Pennsylvania

    I got 2 bottles a couple weeks ago. Each from the same batch. First was fantastic, I'll hedge my bets and say the next will be good too.
  33. rightcoast7

    rightcoast7 Disciple (388) Apr 2, 2011 Maine

    Finally got around to chilling one of my bottles from a case, all dated 10/21. Absolutely disgusting. Sour cherry and garbage on the nose. Taste followed...completely sour. Reminded me of drinking Tart of Darkness. It was so obviously bad that it was hard to believe it wasn't intentionally sour. Just to make sure I wasn't imagining things (although it was really too obvious to doubt), I cracked a 2013 BCBS and it was night and day. The 2013 was chocolate, graham cracker deliciousness. The 2015 was vile, sour garbage. I'm so disappointed and really hope GI stops "looking into it" and just acknowledges that BCBS is fucked. Because it it.
  34. nyrblue2

    nyrblue2 Disciple (341) Jun 9, 2012 New York

    10/23/15 - 1043 - 14.3%

    Broke one open last night and smelled/tasted like expected.
    Victory_Sabre1973 likes this.
  35. siege06nd

    siege06nd Savant (999) Dec 29, 2009 Virginia

    Holy tits!
    Victory_Sabre1973 and CLevar like this.
  36. threedjmay

    threedjmay Initiate (37) Apr 27, 2014 Iowa

    11/04/15 - 1028 -14.3% Tasted fine last night. Compared with a 2014 BCBS and enjoyed both and the slight differences between the two.
    Victory_Sabre1973 likes this.
  37. pumpkinsmasher

    pumpkinsmasher Initiate (172) Nov 12, 2013 New York

    I am certainly concerned about BCBS as I have plenty of bottles, but to be honest, I am even more concerned about the potential of Regal Rye being infected. I have only seen 1 or 2 reports, but I have several bottles, many of which I have traded for and I am wondering how concerned I should be? Have others had issues? It doesn't seem to be as problematic as BCBS to this point but I am still worried as I have no plans of consuming them soon.

    Additionally, swallowing several bottles at almost $25 a piece is a lot harder than the $10 BCBS bottles are if they are bad. I am not saying they are by the way, just that I am concerned.
    #677 pumpkinsmasher, May 2, 2016
    Last edited: May 2, 2016
    berto714 likes this.
  38. Steban

    Steban Initiate (0) Dec 3, 2014 North Carolina

    Opened another 10/21 bottle yesterday. Sour to the smell and taste. Drain pour.
    Victory_Sabre1973 likes this.
  39. nick0417

    nick0417 Initiate (0) Jun 13, 2014 Illinois

    Cracked a 10/9 Saturday afternoon. No infection. Just amazing BCS-ness. I maintain 2015 is the best year for fresh BCS - amazing right from go, infected bottles notwithstanding.
  40. SovietBillCosby

    SovietBillCosby Initiate (0) Dec 6, 2013 New Jersey

    I had a bottle marked 10/21 1427 sitting in my basement ~65 degrees for the past 6 months. Popped in the fridge to chill and opened it over the weekend.
    Luckily, it was just as delicious as it was when purchased.
    Victory_Sabre1973 likes this.
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